Rotation of Offensive Positioning [MEN DOUBLES]

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by Abdullah Ahmad AAK, May 20, 2020.

  1. Abdullah Ahmad AAK

    Abdullah Ahmad AAK New Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2020
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Lahore, Pakistan
    Case 1: Person receiving flick serve chassis-steps back, smashes, and... [reply is block to the net]
    i) Comes back to the front
    ii) Stays at the back

    Case 2: Back court player smashes straight from left/right backside of court.
    i) Back court player moves forward and front court player moves back
    ii) Back court player stays back and front stays front

    Case 2: Back court player drops straight from left/right backside of court.
    i) Back court player moves forward and front court player moves back
    ii) Back court player stays back and front stays front
     
  2. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2016
    Messages:
    694
    Likes Received:
    107
    Location:
    london
    That isn't generally called rotation.

    This is clear cut.

    When the person receiving the flick serve goes back, then his partner goes forward.

    And if the person at the front is able to intercept the block e.g. the block wasn't too fast, and he wasn't too far forward then great. If the block was very fast, and the person at the front was a bit far foward and wasn't able to intercept it then the person at the back could still get it while being behind.

    Your opponents lifted it and you and your partner are meant to be in an attack position. And you need somebody covering the front and it can't be you if they flicked to you., partly 'cos the opponents might block it lightly to the net.

    This type of thing is tricky.

    There are two types of rotation

    There the rotation to get the cross court lift. The person at the front would position themselves such that they cover 3 corners(2 at the front and one at the back). Or 2 corners (one at the front one at the back).

    And there's a very different rotation, where, in the x axis, there isn't a lot of distance between the person at the front and the person at the back. So the shuttle won't have been lifted that far to the left, or that far to the right. (I think I heard that they never used to do it in the 80s.. and maybe not even early 90s. It's a more modern form of rotation). The person at the back could smash , would smash straight, and call to his partner to switch. They'd have to have practised it. If the person at the back did a drop then they wouldn't generally do that. (I have heard that there can be cases even in mens, if one player is much better at the front and one much better at the back, then they might agree beforehand and the person that does the drop could go to the front, perhaps a bit like mixed, but I don't think it's generally done and I can't comment much about that).

    Both these rotations are more something they get right at county level upwards. And ideally require you, and your partner, to have done drills of it with a coach.

    It's something you have to discuss with your partner so you are both on the same page. You definitely don't want a collision..which can happen in certain cases if the player at the front has funny ideas that he didn't agree to with his partner and if he at the front doesn't have an awareness of where his partner is.
     
    #2 ralphz, May 25, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
    Abdullah Ahmad AAK likes this.
  3. Obito

    Obito Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2017
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    82
    Location:
    Bangkok
    Case 1: Person receiving flick serve chassis-steps back, smashes, and... [reply is block to the net]
    i) Comes back to the front
    ii) Stays at the back

    In this case, the one that smash stays at the back since he would be out of balance by the time he landed, so his partner need to cover the front for him.

    Case 2: Back court player smashes straight from left/right backside of court.
    i) Back court player moves forward and front court player moves back
    ii) Back court player stays back and front stays front

    Case 3: Back court player drops straight from left/right backside of court.
    i) Back court player moves forward and front court player moves back
    ii) Back court player stays back and front stays front

    These two cases are the same since smash/drop is an offensive play. When you play an offensive play like this, your partner need to cover up the front for you. Unless you play the shot slightly to the mid court then you may need to keep moving forward ideally but it depends on your partner. As I always say the front court player is the playmaker he is the one who decide whether or not the back court player would come forward or not. If he opens a space for you [by turning side and moving back a bit], it is a sight that the back court player need to move upward to fill in the blank.
    However, its not always in the case since someone who been playing together for so long, he knows that his partner is able to cover up or whatsoever he wont move. My coach always say it is harder to play with untrained people because they wont know these little things, but we need to be able to adapt if we still wanna play with them.
     
  4. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2016
    Messages:
    694
    Likes Received:
    107
    Location:
    london
    Maybe you mean -from- the midcourt?

    And when they do that shot, have you ever seen it be a drop? Or is it always a smash?

    Taking into account that you said of cases 2,3

    When you say

    Are you suggesting the back player when getting a weak lift/weak clear, i.e. playing the overhead shot from midcourt, would do a drop and come forward?

    Do you have an example of this?

    (No question re a smash from there they may come forward, but re a drop). And since you say smash/drop case is the same.
     
    #4 ralphz, Jun 4, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
    Obito likes this.
  5. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2010
    Messages:
    4,596
    Likes Received:
    1,774
    Occupation:
    ZFII
    Location:
    ZFII
    Depends where he smashs to, which attacking system they play, how deep in the court the contact point is.

    Depends which attacking system they play, how deep the rear court players is in the back.

    Depends which attacking system they play.

    As long as the play tunnel attack, rear court player hits at rear service line or deeper and attack straight ii). If they don't play tunnel a straight attack is a bad tactical decision. Without knowing the position of the other player and a specific situation hard to tell.
     
  6. Obito

    Obito Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2017
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    82
    Location:
    Bangkok
    My bad. Yes I mean from the midcourt (moving from the back to play the midcourt shot that surpass the front court player] . Most pro they smash it because most of them could finish it in one blow. Some club player with weaker smash could do a drop shot [be sure that your preparation of each looks the same which mean your smash and your drop need to look exactly the same first] if they dont feel like they could kill the shot to throw the oppenent out of balance [because people expect the shot from mid court to be a smash, so people usually move back further than usual to prepare for a smash.] I personally use it from time to time to throw out the oppenent out of the balance to create an opportunity. Also, if the back player getting a weak lift or clear. They could possibly play a drop shot or even smash and coming to the front, but this is really depends on the front court player. If the front court player doesnt allow the back player to come up, then the back has to stay in the back still. For a good example, Yuta and Kevin are best example of players who has an excellent skill in change of pace.
     
  7. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2016
    Messages:
    694
    Likes Received:
    107
    Location:
    london

    When you say Tunnel, do you mean "no rotation"? It's rather circular to use it in that sense of when to rotate, and I have never heard of it used in that sense. You refer to "tunnel attack", what would "tunnel defense" look like in your view, if it exists at all?

    Also, where did -you- hear the term 'tunnel' / what country / what source? I understand it may be used in Germany, and refers to a system and can involve rotation. And rotation doesn't necessarily imply "defense".. One can rotate and maintain an attack.
     
    #7 ralphz, Jun 4, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
  8. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2010
    Messages:
    4,596
    Likes Received:
    1,774
    Occupation:
    ZFII
    Location:
    ZFII
    Let me clarify it. I don't know if tunnel attack is the right wording for global, I just translated how we call it here.



    The video should clarify what I mean related to the questions of the OP. It's a video by a well known doubles coach of the german national badminton team. This attack is advantageous when the backcourt player attacks straight. When you wanna rotate a straight attack is due the geometrical possible returns a no-go.

    I didn't said anything about rotations yet, because the questions of the OP falls mostly into the category "it depends". I know that rotations are made to maintain the attack, but thank you for telling something I still know. ;)

    As @Obito stated there are crossings when the backcourt player should move forward and when he should stay in the back. If i) or ii) mostly depends on where the backcourt player hits. I'm leaning more towards i) when back court player is closer to the midcourt and to ii) when backcourt player hit it closer to the backline. That's equal in each system. Even tunnel.

    Systems from my understanding:

     
    Abdullah Ahmad AAK likes this.
  9. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2016
    Messages:
    694
    Likes Received:
    107
    Location:
    london
    Yes that German video from Diemo Ruhnow which has been mentioned on the forum before, is where i'd heard of the term. I don't know much about how the terms are used as i'm not over there. And, in England I haven't run into any equivalent terms. I wish somebody with good English and good German would subtitle those videos well!
     
    #9 ralphz, Jun 4, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
    Abdullah Ahmad AAK likes this.
  10. shooting stroke

    shooting stroke Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,085
    Likes Received:
    274
    Occupation:
    Professional / Badminton Coach
    Location:
    Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, Malaysia
    Hi there

    In doubles, both player must fully understand about what role they should be playing. Factors such as level of strength, optimal distance of court movements and constant interactions plays an important part for a smooth, dynamic and mutual territorial court coverage for both players. Despite it's a straight answer for all the above cases (ii) but it's not as straight forward as it is. Playing doubles requires strategy and that strategy constantly changes as the game progresses esp if you're having difficulty playing against a tough opponents. You want to keep that constant pressure towards your opponents as much as possible.

    In doubles, when both of you are in an offensive mode (smash/drop shot) and if you're moving or at the back court doing the attacking then you should remain at the back court. That's your territory. While you're constantly on the offensive mode, you should cover the width of the court from left to right because this is your optimal distance of court movements . Why optimal is because this area of your court coverage will still allows you for better view of the incoming birdie for a better attacking preparation. However if your partner is a much more better attacking player then you should interact with your partner to strategies your next hit in order to efficiently rotate and to allow him to cover the back court while you go to the front court. If I'm playing with Hendra Setiawan or Koo Kien Kiat the i would like them to cover the front court since they are a better front court players. But If I'm playing with Fu Haifeng or Tan boon heong then i would like them to cover the back court because they are a better attacking type of players. Similarly when you're at the front court in an attacking mode then the width of the front court will be your territory because that's the optimal distance that you should cover for a more quicker and better front court reply.

    Unless if you're training with a regular partner and then if both of you have mutually decided it's strategically effective if there are certain court area which you or your partner will specifically cover after a certain attacking pattern then such strategic decision must be practically train for better result
     
    Abdullah Ahmad AAK likes this.
  11. Abdullah Ahmad AAK

    Abdullah Ahmad AAK New Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2020
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Lahore, Pakistan
    Firstly thank you for sharing this video about the 3 systems: Tunnel, Classic and Wedge. I put it through Google Translate to try to understand the slides.Can you see if I got the concepts right?

    1- In Tunnel Position,offensive shots are best hit to Longline or Body1.
    In Classic Position,offensive shots are best hit to Body1 or the Centre (between the 2 defending players)
    In Wedge Position, offensive shots are best hit to Centre, Body2, or Cross

    2- Longline = hitting down the line in the side-tramlines?
    Body1/Korper1 = hitting straight smash at body of opponent1 in front of you
    Body2/Korper2 = hitting smash at body of opponent2 on the crosscourt side
     

    Attached Files:

    shooting stroke and ucantseeme like this.
  12. shooting stroke

    shooting stroke Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,085
    Likes Received:
    274
    Occupation:
    Professional / Badminton Coach
    Location:
    Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, Malaysia
    When you're going for a body attack then to make the reply more difficult, make an effort to aim your attack at your opponent racket arm shoulder.

    If you're smashing straight down the line then DONT go for the outer line but rather make an effort to aim at the empty space far beyond your opponent reach between the lines. This to reduce you from making errors because of going too accurate smashing on the line itself (unless your smash is 100% damn accurate) .

    If you're smashing down center (in between your opponents), if both your opponent are right handed, make an effort to channel your smash more towards your opponent back hand area.
     
  13. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2010
    Messages:
    4,596
    Likes Received:
    1,774
    Occupation:
    ZFII
    Location:
    ZFII
    Exactly you got it. I'm really surprised that you made this hassle to translate it. Simplified you can say to yourself on court that you should always hit through/infront of your front court player/partner to get the blocked replies into his reach at an optimum.:) Wedge is a bit different, but you got it. Maybe this video can backup what I mean to understand it better.

     

Share This Page