Ruminations on Malaysia Sudirman Cup campaign

H

hsengsping

Regular Member
Another disappointing campaign again.

It was a mistake to have sent only a 10 member team. Not only because the team could be strengthened by having more members but some "free" ranking points could have been obtained to help in Olympic qualification for players.

As I understand, according to WBF points calculation for team players even losing players get their average ranking points awarded, winners get their average points plus 10% of opponents ranking points. Therefore if Zakry/Fairuz were included, because they have done well in their initial 3 tournaments even if they lose they will the average points gained from these 3 tournaments i.e. almost 6000 points (equivalent to losing finalist in Grand Prix Gold) - why not include them and play them in the China group tie?

Also CTF/LWW also has high ranking points and even if they lose they get close to getting Grand Prix Gold finalist points - useful in Olympic qualification year. If they win 1 match against a decent ranking opponent then they get close to Grand Prix Gold winners points. Also CTF/LWW pretty close in standard IMO to KKK/TBH and fielding them probably does not weaken Msian lineup.

Msia could have use all 3 men's doubles pairs above to get cheap/free points for them without detracting from competitiveness.

The idea that TWK/WKW the mixed doubles pair is included in team to get points is ludicrous - their current average point is 1460 and if even they beat the world No 1 pair, they get an extra 557 points - that's less than SS 1st round loser's points. This pair deserve exposure because of potential but full bloom of their talent is still some way off and they are not competitive against the top pairs at present. KKK/WPT can beat any MXD pair on a good day though their performance had been inconsistent. Having LWW/CTF meant KKK/WPT can be played in matches where WD is not realistically winnable e.g. against SK/China so WPT/CEE weakened by a more tired WPT would not make much difference.

Anita RK inclusion is ok though for points reason Julia Wong is better value in a throwaway match e.g. against China. WMC needs to play in any competitive tie as the gulf in standard to next WS player is too great. Ditto LCW for MS.

Malaysia should have sent

LCW
WCH - or not (sadly WCH cannot be relied upon to beat top 20 men on present form)
WMC
JWPX
CEH/WPT
KKK/TBH
LWW/CTF
MZ/MF
TWK/WKW

Possible Msia team

LCW
WMC
KKK/TBH
CEH/WPT
TWK/WKW

Even in hindsight, I would actually play this (losing) team against England as in WS, MD, WD matches Msia has at least even or better chance of winning on any given day.

Can also play

LCW
WMC
LWW/CTF
CEH/WPT
KKK/WPT
Good for Thai/SK/Indon?

LCW
WMC
KKK/TBH
CEH/WPT
MZ/WPT
Good for Denmark?

Against China in a group match, I would go cynically for individual players' ranking points grab. In a (dream) final with China I fancy team 2 above rather than make KKK and WPT play twice.

I expect against Denmark tonight team 1 will be used if Msia wants to win. Can't imagine KKK and WPT made to play twice just to get a 5th position!

Oh well.....not a good team composition effort for Msia IMO.
 
hsengsping said:
Another disappointing campaign again.

It was a mistake to have sent only a 10 member team. Not only because the team could be strengthened by having more members but some "free" ranking points could have been obtained to help in Olympic qualification for players.

As I understand, according to WBF points calculation for team players even losing players get their average ranking points awarded, winners get their average points plus 10% of opponents ranking points. Therefore if Zakry/Fairuz were included, because they have done well in their initial 3 tournaments even if they lose they will the average points gained from these 3 tournaments i.e. almost 6000 points (equivalent to losing finalist in Grand Prix Gold) - why not include them and play them in the China group tie?

Also CTF/LWW also has high ranking points and even if they lose they get close to getting Grand Prix Gold finalist points - useful in Olympic qualification year. If they win 1 match against a decent ranking opponent then they get close to Grand Prix Gold winners points. Also CTF/LWW pretty close in standard IMO to KKK/TBH and fielding them probably does not weaken Msian lineup.

Msia could have use all 3 men's doubles pairs above to get cheap/free points for them without detracting from competitiveness.

The idea that TWK/WKW the mixed doubles pair is included in team to get points is ludicrous - their current average point is 1460 and if even they beat the world No 1 pair, they get an extra 557 points - that's less than SS 1st round loser's points. This pair deserve exposure because of potential but full bloom of their talent is still some way off and they are not competitive against the top pairs at present. KKK/WPT can beat any MXD pair on a good day though their performance had been inconsistent. Having LWW/CTF meant KKK/WPT can be played in matches where WD is not realistically winnable e.g. against SK/China so WPT/CEE weakened by a more tired WPT would not make much difference.

Anita RK inclusion is ok though for points reason Julia Wong is better value in a throwaway match e.g. against China. WMC needs to play in any competitive tie as the gulf in standard to next WS player is too great. Ditto LCW for MS.

Malaysia should have sent

LCW
WCH - or not (sadly WCH cannot be relied upon to beat top 20 men on present form)
WMC
JWPX
CEH/WPT
KKK/TBH
LWW/CTF
MZ/MF
TWK/WKW

Possible Msia team

LCW
WMC
KKK/TBH
CEH/WPT
TWK/WKW

Even in hindsight, I would actually play this (losing) team against England as in WS, MD, WD matches Msia has at least even or better chance of winning on any given day.

Can also play

LCW
WMC
LWW/CTF
CEH/WPT
KKK/WPT
Good for Thai/SK/Indon?

LCW
WMC
KKK/TBH
CEH/WPT
MZ/WPT
Good for Denmark?

Against China in a group match, I would go cynically for individual players' ranking points grab. In a (dream) final with China I fancy team 2 above rather than make KKK and WPT play twice.

I expect against Denmark tonight team 1 will be used if Msia wants to win. Can't imagine KKK and WPT made to play twice just to get a 5th position!

Oh well.....not a good team composition effort for Msia IMO.
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No matter how you cut it, Malaysia does not have the depth to win it. They were realistic in sending therefore the ten players. I look at the mixed doubles pair, no way are they up to scratch (very raw and scrappy) and the women MD were also pathetic under pressure.

Hope for MS and MD fame in the WC -- more realistic than fantasising on what could have been when it clearly could not be, even on hindsight.
 
I'm not blaming MAS team in this aspect. It's the mixed world champion (SC) vs. individual world champions (WC). Both types of trophies (or medals) are equally important but given MAS players' present form, they have realistic chances to win one or even two WC titles while SC is virtually China's grab. Therefore, if YKH and co.'s primary objective and rationale is to stay in Div 1 (with entering sf as a bonus) and they prefer to let more players stay home to prepare for WC (namely, other MD pairs, as well as Hafiz who could help clearing LCW's path at WC) than send them to SC, so be it.

I would rather look at this from the bright side (especially if such a "sacrificial" decision is proven paid off at WC, that is, winning a WC title in Aug) and congratulate MAS for achieving the best ever result in the tournament series. We have to admit that the draw favored MAS team - if it was drawn to a "sudden death" group (e.g., MAS facing any two of the following four teams in the same group - CHN, INA, KOR and DEN), then you guys probably wouldn't have made such a big fuss for MAS failing to advance to sf.
 
Agree with the depth thing in all departments except MD. But Msia is competitive with all countries except China - competitive doesn't mean winning consistently but 40-60% chance each tie.

Given available talents, beating China takes inspirational play from the entire team, unlikely and improbable but hey improbable things happen in sports.

Its over anyway. 6th is a major underachievement commensurate I suppose with a lack of ambition and confidence from the beginning.

Part of the point of the post is that Msian strategy isn't consistent - TWK/WKW went for points etc. MZ/MF can get masses of free ranking points to help with Olympic qual and also seeding for SS events as they are a new pair.
 
Inky2000 said:
I'm not blaming MAS team in this aspect. It's the mixed world champion (SC) vs. individual world champions (WC). Both types of trophies (or medals) are equally important but given MAS players' present form, they have realistic chances to win one or even two WC titles while SC is virtually China's grab. Therefore, if YKH and co.'s primary objective and rationale is to stay in Div 1 (with entering sf as a bonus) and they prefer to let more players stay home to prepare for WC (namely, other MD pairs, as well as Hafiz who could help clearing LCW's path at WC) than send them to SC, so be it.

I would rather look at this from the bright side (especially if such a "sacrificial" decision is proven paid off at WC, that is, winning a WC title in Aug) and congratulate MAS for achieving the best ever result in the tournament series. We have to admit that the draw favored MAS team - if it was drawn to a "sudden death" group (e.g., MAS facing any two of the following four teams in the same group - CHN, INA, KOR and DEN), then you guys probably wouldn't have made such a big fuss for MAS failing to advance to sf.
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Maybe Malaysia should learn from Denmark whom sent their strongest line up even their chance of lifting the SC is so slim, and that's probably why they managed to beat Mala to finish at 5th.

I can't recall since when but seems like Malaysia has learn from TH now that they only (attempt) to perform on some of their so call "important" tournaments and give excuses for their lost like "I didn't play my best cause I don't intend to win at first place". :rolleyes:
 
We just can't have the best of the both worlds unless we are Chinese. That's life. That's why I don't mind if they choose to prioritize something else rather than greedily go all the way out at something that is far from their reach. So, until the day MAS female shuttlers are on par with their male counterparts, I'm more sympathetic with (than being mad at) their "we got more important things to do" attitude. Of course, if they carries the same attitude towards their Thomas Cup challenge, that's certainly unacceptable.
 
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What is this about? Is this about
a) Sending a big team, so that players can get ranking points for Olympic qualification?, or
b) Being serious about the Sudirman Cup?

(a) and (b) are conflicting. If (a), then you are not serious about Sudirman Cup because obviously you will be fielding your second- or third-best. If (b), then there is no need for a big team because you will only be fielding your best players in your 4 or 5 ties.

In my opinion, the MAS team is serious about the Sudirman Cup, but also serious about stuff outside of the Sudirman Cup. We sent our best team (or very close to the best) and we field our best team. We don't have winning ambition, but we'll try our best. As for the rest of the squad, stay home and train for other tournaments instead of being tourists and spectators for a whole week.
 
Not a sports psychologist but surely the attitude for a good sportsman must be one of consistent competitiveness - i.e. to want to win, to feel you can win, then win or to be appropriately disappointed when you don't win and build yourself up for the next competition. BTW not a sportsman myself either just my 2 cents (of common sense?).

(a) and (b) isn't incompatible if you read press commentary from coaching staff re MXD TWK/WKW inclusion - with due respect they are not best current Msian MXD - potentially maybe. MD MZ/MF (or LWW/CTF) will not be idle passengers on current form and former are indeed are Msian wildcard MD entry for WC2007 so they presumably have coaching/selection staff confidence.

Focus is good, keeping wider picture in view isn't bad either.

A team as good as Msia (on paper and I believe in talent) aiming only for SF lacks sporting ambition - aim low, achieve even lower target. Aim high, don't get there, never mind that's sports, try again as there can only be 1 champion (but many winners in other ways). Aiming low is likely a loser at the start.
 
Here are my opinions on MAS squad:

MS: LCW has done his best in the tournament having won all 4 matches without dropping a set including a straight-set victory over LD. He has regained the top form or even better form he's used to have.

WS: Unfortunate for WMC. I believe that she can challenge anyone during her good day and I hope she can break into top 10 (top 8 would be better) by end of this year. WCH's injury during TC06 and WMC's in SC07, was it a coincidence or a curse?

MD: KKK/TBH still have a lot of potential but I think their problem is that they rely on Rexy so much that they don't know what to do without Rexy around. Losing to CHN pairs in straight sets was their worst performance so far. Having only won 2 matches out of 4 contested, their performance in this SC suggested that they were underperformed. They really need to work hard and do some adjustment on their games ahead of the WC.

WD: World ranking for WPT/CEH does not suggest anything. Their witnesses were they can't perform well under pressure and have low self-confidence against CHN pairs. And, I hope I was wrong but it looks like they are contended with their current ranking. Now, anyone can beat them.

XD: It's still a long way to go for MAS to be top XD pairs. But, under Rexy's guidance, TWK/WKW are one of those to be watched on next SC.
 
Actually i am really frustrated with our WD Chin/Wong.They can lose points easily even though they are leading far away.What an awful performance by them when against Denmark yesterday.I am spechless now,very dissapointing towards them.
 
robin7 said:
Here are my opinions on MAS squad:

MS: LCW has done his best in the tournament having won all 4 matches without dropping a set including a straight-set victory over LD. He has regained the top form or even better form he's used to have.

WS: Unfortunate for WMC. I believe that she can challenge anyone during her good day and I hope she can break into top 10 (top 8 would be better) by end of this year. WCH's injury during TC06 and WMC's in SC07, was it a coincidence or a curse?

MD: KKK/TBH still have a lot of potential but I think their problem is that they rely on Rexy so much that they don't know what to do without Rexy around. Losing to CHN pairs in straight sets was their worst performance so far. Having only won 2 matches out of 4 contested, their performance in this SC suggested that they were underperformed. They really need to work hard and do some adjustment on their games ahead of the WC.

WD: World ranking for WPT/CEH does not suggest anything. Their witnesses were they can't perform well under pressure and have low self-confidence against CHN pairs. And, I hope I was wrong but it looks like they are contended with their current ranking. Now, anyone can beat them.

XD: It's still a long way to go for MAS to be top XD pairs. But, under Rexy's guidance, TWK/WKW are one of those to be watched on next SC.
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Jessica said:
Actually i am really frustrated with our WD Chin/Wong.They can lose points easily even though they are leading far away.What an awful performance by them when against Denmark yesterday.I am spechless now,very dissapointing towards them.
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Spot on. CEH/WPT possibly suffers from never been a winner syndrome i.e. not been winners in open competition (Commonwealth G considered non open). QF specialists - not bad, keeps ranking but not quite there. Maybe should send them to smaller GP or even challenger events to give them the winners feeling. Might give them confidence boost.
 
i think wong/chin are still affected by narrow lost to england.they should have played better without the unforced errors. haiz.seems like they have lost confidence. anyway hope they can perform better in next tourneys. learn from past mistakes

ya kkk/tbh depends too much on rexy. without rexy, they seems lost. they should be more independent. they are still young and have a good future if they improve and correct their mistakes

sad for WMC. if she plays last nite, she can score a point for mas
 
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hsengsping said:
Not a sports psychologist but surely the attitude for a good sportsman must be one of consistent competitiveness - i.e. to want to win, to feel you can win, then win or to be appropriately disappointed when you don't win and build yourself up for the next competition. BTW not a sportsman myself either just my 2 cents (of common sense?).
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I agree with you, and if there is any in the Malaysian camp guilty of any of those sins, please enlighten me. At the very least, I don't see any of them jumping for joy after losing.

hsengsping said:
(a) and (b) isn't incompatible if you read press commentary from coaching staff re MXD TWK/WKW inclusion - with due respect they are not best current Msian MXD - potentially maybe. MD MZ/MF (or LWW/CTF) will not be idle passengers on current form and former are indeed are Msian wildcard MD entry for WC2007 so they presumably have coaching/selection staff confidence.
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I agree that we could have done with one more MD pair (not two) but that's about all. Our best XD pair (KKK/WPT) did go there. Tan/Woon is not our best, but I doubt KKK/WPT would have a better record than 0 wins in the group stage, or at least not against Robertson/Emms (the vital one). Additionally, Tan/Woon is also a wild card for WC so they presumably also have the coaches' confidence.

hsengsping said:
Focus is good, keeping wider picture in view isn't bad either.
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I am glad you think focus is good also. They're both good. Unfortunately, one is the opposite of the other.

hsengsping said:
A team as good as Msia (on paper and I believe in talent) aiming only for SF lacks sporting ambition - aim low, achieve even lower target. Aim high, don't get there, never mind that's sports, try again as there can only be 1 champion (but many winners in other ways). Aiming low is likely a loser at the start.
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It goes without saying that everyone wants the best for themselves. But you have to be realistic in setting targets, and you especially have to be realistic when you tell the whole world what sort of target you are aiming for. For instance, the Malaysian football team could do much better than to officially say they want to win the next World Cup. Furthermore, setting a SF target does not mean that they will stop playing once they reach the target.
 
hsengsping said:
Spot on. CEH/WPT possibly suffers from never been a winner syndrome i.e. not been winners in open competition (Commonwealth G considered non open). QF specialists - not bad, keeps ranking but not quite there. Maybe should send them to smaller GP or even challenger events to give them the winners feeling. Might give them confidence boost.
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But you said they're supposed to aim high. Why go for lower-class tournaments when you are supposed to aim for the highest?
 
Inky2000 said:
We just can't have the best of the both worlds unless we are Chinese. That's life. That's why I don't mind if they choose to prioritize something else rather than greedily go all the way out at something that is far from their reach. So, until the day MAS female shuttlers are on par with their male counterparts, I'm more sympathetic with (than being mad at) their "we got more important things to do" attitude. Of course, if they carries the same attitude towards their Thomas Cup challenge, that's certainly unacceptable.
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Still, Malaysia female counterpart has improved greatly and is good enough to put up a good fight against any country except China so not sending more players is the wrong strategy and leaving Rexy at home also makes no sense as KKK/TBH still need lots of guidance appearently. Anyway, just have to learn from the lesson. The good news is, we are still in division 1.
 
Not saying any self respecting player/coach/official would play to lose or enjoy losing. The psyche needed at the top level is very fine between helping to win or lose. You build up confidence, self belief and hopefully that improve performance by making player believe CAN (not will) win. Must go into competition believing that! Set SF target, achieve SF, if in Finals, mission already more than acomplished: competitive "EDGE" diminished (not extinguished).

That's why the suggestion for WPT/CEH going for competitions they can win, build their confidence for better performance at SS and higher level. Throwing somebody into the deep end without build up (i.e. TWK/WKW situation?) when you lose trying very hard against opponents who beat you at will can be dispiriting and morale crushing. I am not saying at world No. 7 CEH/WPT stop playing SS but send them to GPs to let them have the winners feeling as strategy.

Reasonable strategy to play at competitive level for any player/team. I still believe Msia is "competitive" for Sudirman Cup but certainly not Football WC.

Reading the local press (maybe press gives wrong impression), ambition is often muted, it should be I can be champion, I am going to be champion and oops of course I am not champion (often) but I tried my best. As a country at least in badminton I think we don't have this ambition and confidence going in so win less often that we can.

We went in Sudirman Cup with limited ambition so team choice reflect this - 10 members only. A mixed between ambition to win (send the best team) and build up a stronger future squad (TWK/WKW inclusion). All other countries in Div 1 sent more - why? 10 members only sends the wrong message, it diminishes our edge and gives comfort to our opponents: Msia not REALLY coming to win. By sending a bigger team (on merit and similar rationale as other teams make their selection) gives options if injuries etc and gives coaches flexibility on team choice at each tie and to mess up opponents preparation on which Msian player they face.

I agree that in the end realistically its only another MD pair to be added and to be more consistent in team selection strategy instead of Anita whether it should be Julia or Lydia for WS (if TWK/WKW chosen logically Lydia should go based on same rationale).

Cheers. Thanks for the discussion.
 
KKK-TBH should stay at home--- Rexy's decision is right. I would rather they stay at home ('get hungry again') and view videos of their appalling plays lately.

There is a bit of chemistry problems between TBH and KKK. They are not clicking together. KKK is not smashing as much --- too many tricky plays and he got caught upfront smashing into the net many times.

However, all is not lost. There were occassions they showed brilliance in the Sudirman --- so if they can recoup with this break given to them by Rexy, it would be the best thing to happen. Come back hungry and stronger.
 
X Ball said:
KKK-TBH should stay at home--- Rexy's decision is right. I would rather they stay at home ('get hungry again') and view videos of their appalling plays lately.

There is a bit of chemistry problems between TBH and KKK. They are not clicking together. KKK is not smashing as much --- too many tricky plays and he got caught upfront smashing into the net many times.

However, all is not lost. There were occassions they showed brilliance in the Sudirman --- so if they can recoup with this break given to them by Rexy, it would be the best thing to happen. Come back hungry and stronger.
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I think their "slump" in form not as bad as LCW's was, maybe even no slump at all just to and fro performance variation expected even of world no. 1 wannabe. Recently, Asian champs RU loss to CTF/LWW, 1st R loss to MZ/MF (very upwardly mobile pair) in Spore SS, then SF Indon SS loss to FHF/CY - its not that bad. Before that, brilliant.

Sudirman performance bit below par for sure: lost to World No 1, beat World no 3, lost World no. 8, beat decent Thai pair as you said occasional brilliance.

Malaysia sending a lot of top MD pairs (and 2nd tier as well) to winnable Thai Open, so decision not to send KKK/TBH probably beneficial all round. Even without them Msia MD should be seeded 1st, 5th, 7th, 11th with GTC/LWF lurking about and with bunch of 2nd tiers to fight through qualifications.
 
hsengsping said:
I think their "slump" in form not as bad as LCW's was, maybe even no slump at all just to and fro performance variation expected even of world no. 1 wannabe. Recently, Asian champs RU loss to CTF/LWW, 1st R loss to MZ/MF (very upwardly mobile pair) in Spore SS, then SF Indon SS loss to FHF/CY - its not that bad. Before that, brilliant.

Sudirman performance bit below par for sure: lost to World No 1, beat World no 3, lost World no. 8, beat decent Thai pair as you said occasional brilliance.

Malaysia sending a lot of top MD pairs (and 2nd tier as well) to winnable Thai Open, so decision not to send KKK/TBH probably beneficial all round. Even without them Msia MD should be seeded 1st, 5th, 7th, 11th with GTC/LWF lurking about and with bunch of 2nd tiers to fight through qualifications.
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I think as long as Rexy is around during the tournament to provide guidance then this pair will do just fine. You can't win all the time and as long as you put yourself in winning position then is good enough. This is a young pair experiencing growing pain.
 
hsengsping said:
Another disappointing campaign again.

It was a mistake to have sent only a 10 member team. Not only because the team could be strengthened by having more members but some "free" ranking points could have been obtained to help in Olympic qualification for players.

As I understand, according to WBF points calculation for team players even losing players get their average ranking points awarded, winners get their average points plus 10% of opponents ranking points. Therefore if Zakry/Fairuz were included, because they have done well in their initial 3 tournaments even if they lose they will the average points gained from these 3 tournaments i.e. almost 6000 points (equivalent to losing finalist in Grand Prix Gold) - why not include them and play them in the China group tie?

Also CTF/LWW also has high ranking points and even if they lose they get close to getting Grand Prix Gold finalist points - useful in Olympic qualification year. If they win 1 match against a decent ranking opponent then they get close to Grand Prix Gold winners points. Also CTF/LWW pretty close in standard IMO to KKK/TBH and fielding them probably does not weaken Msian lineup.

Msia could have use all 3 men's doubles pairs above to get cheap/free points for them without detracting from competitiveness.

The idea that TWK/WKW the mixed doubles pair is included in team to get points is ludicrous - their current average point is 1460 and if even they beat the world No 1 pair, they get an extra 557 points - that's less than SS 1st round loser's points. This pair deserve exposure because of potential but full bloom of their talent is still some way off and they are not competitive against the top pairs at present. KKK/WPT can beat any MXD pair on a good day though their performance had been inconsistent. Having LWW/CTF meant KKK/WPT can be played in matches where WD is not realistically winnable e.g. against SK/China so WPT/CEE weakened by a more tired WPT would not make much difference.

Anita RK inclusion is ok though for points reason Julia Wong is better value in a throwaway match e.g. against China. WMC needs to play in any competitive tie as the gulf in standard to next WS player is too great. Ditto LCW for MS.

Malaysia should have sent

LCW
WCH - or not (sadly WCH cannot be relied upon to beat top 20 men on present form)
WMC
JWPX
CEH/WPT
KKK/TBH
LWW/CTF
MZ/MF
TWK/WKW

Possible Msia team

LCW
WMC
KKK/TBH
CEH/WPT
TWK/WKW

Even in hindsight, I would actually play this (losing) team against England as in WS, MD, WD matches Msia has at least even or better chance of winning on any given day.

Can also play

LCW
WMC
LWW/CTF
CEH/WPT
KKK/WPT
Good for Thai/SK/Indon?

LCW
WMC
KKK/TBH
CEH/WPT
MZ/WPT
Good for Denmark?

Against China in a group match, I would go cynically for individual players' ranking points grab. In a (dream) final with China I fancy team 2 above rather than make KKK and WPT play twice.

I expect against Denmark tonight team 1 will be used if Msia wants to win. Can't imagine KKK and WPT made to play twice just to get a 5th position!

Oh well.....not a good team composition effort for Msia IMO.
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now LCW has a 4 match 4 win record in SC..
is tat mean tat LCW ranking will jump up to 2nd and lead the 3rd many many point??
 
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