super Dan or disappointment Dan?

Discussion in 'World Championships 2005' started by Common Aussies, Aug 22, 2005.

  1. Wildstone

    Wildstone Regular Member

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    If you lose, you lose. You can't blame on the excuse on "not in form" , or "not in good mood". It's a Professional's quality to be prepared and perform good in any given environment. If you can only win "in good mood/form" then you are not qualified as a professional. I'm a Malaysian and I want to say this, malaysian players play according to "mood". They can perform extremely well or extremely poor depending on the mood. That's very bad.

    Back to topic, LIN DAN LOST, that's the fact. Arguing that "he will win if in good form" is not valid. The argument itself makes him a loser, since he couldn't suit himself into the "good form" that you guys have been arguing.
     
  2. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

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    When Taufik lost like crazy to Lee CW in the Malaysian Open, even Lee's staunchest fans know that something was not right with Taufik. When Lin Dan lost to to Taufik in the final, even Taufik knew it was too easy. Lin Dan lost, that's a fact. Lin Dan was not his usual self, that's another fact. He has to go back and reflect on why he cannot play his usual game and maybe play better the next time.

    When we comment about a match, we just try to say truthfully on what we saw. Sometimes, we may not be excusing Lin Dan from losing. For instance, if I say I lost a match because I have weak backhand, I may not be saying it as an excuse, but just being matter-of-fact.
     
  3. coops241180

    coops241180 Regular Member

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    a few simple points.

    1. lin dan's game is more based on speed and power than taufik's
    2. taufik has more 'natural' ability than lin dan
    3. based on these two points lin dan is more susceptible to a drop in form due to tiredness from previous rounds or other environmental factors (too much time with xxf:eek::p )
    4. lin dan had had more 3 setters than taufik in this tournament and had had one the previous day whereas taufik had not. On top of this lin dan's game was later than taufiks so he also had less time to recover.

    now, i'm not the biggest fan of either, preferring kenneth jonassen myself so i'm not biased either way. Both players are dead level when it comes to overall performance. The winner on the day between these two is most likely to be down to environmental factors. altho if i had to choose between the two i would say taufik is less likely to be affected by these factors because of his natural ability. However this is more often than not balanced otu by taufik's poor attitude to training and competition... why else is he down at 6 and not no. 1 ???

    enjoy..

    Coops

    NB: interestingly tho - taufik spent 20 mins longer altogether on court than lin dan due to dan's bye in the first round.
     
    #23 coops241180, Aug 23, 2005
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2005
  4. badMania

    badMania Regular Member

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    It is a fact that Taufik chooses the tournaments that he wish to compete. In fact, PBSI itself DOES NOT (OR RARELY) SEND its top players to compete in some 2* or 3* tournaments like the Taiwan Open, Thailand Open, Holland Open and German Open. Only the second-string players will be sent to compete there. Plus the fact that Taufik was injured early this year, which forbids him to compete in Korean Open 2005, the All England 2005 and Swiss Open 2005.

    In fact, since his Olympics victory at Athens, he has managed to compete in only 6 tournaments (including the recently concluded WC) and won the title in 3 tournaments (the 7-star WC and the 5-star Indo and Singapore Open).
     
  5. jug8man

    jug8man Regular Member

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    for the record

    Taufik = 3 : Lin Dan = 1 -----> Fact (hope im right :D )

    Taufik a better player than Lin Dan overall? -----> very likely

    the 2005 WC Final a good match to prove Taufik supremacy over Lin Dan?
    ------> Absolutely NOT!!!! (wind factor & overload of acis lactic build up in Lin Dan's body)


    So where do we go from here?????

    WE DEMAND TAUFIK VS LIN round 5!!!!!!!!!!!!
    THE MATCH TO DETERMINE IT ALL!!!!!!! ALL OR NOTHING!!!!!!! WINNER TAKES ALL!!!!!!!!

    hopefuly it will be a neutral situation (ie no wind for excuses and top form)
    then Taufik will really show the world once and for all that he's the man!


    cheers

    8man
     
  6. taufik-ist

    taufik-ist Regular Member

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    well guys,

    a good skillful player is the one who can win at any situation, and can quickly to adjust the court ( wind factor,etc) and aslo quick learned, just look at taufik vs kenneth, first set he lost easily beacuse of wind factor and then 2nd set he could learn and change the game by winning it.

    taufik like NAVY SEALS.. any court, wind factor... no probelem because he's special
     
  7. cant_backhand

    cant_backhand Regular Member

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    you carzy








    u cazry after 3>1, th is > lin dan
    if i lose 3 games to a person . i dont think i would say u got lucky i wasnt at the my best. we play best out of 6 !
    thats just nuts . if u lose . u lose, no excuss the winner takes all . 1 TH 2 . lin dan
     
  8. xofrevlis

    xofrevlis Regular Member

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    If we're going by head to head results then does that mean Bao is a better player than the world champion? ;)

    I certainly don't think so. To me, it just means that Bao is better player against Taufik, but there is a lot more to winning tournaments in badminton than just being able to beat one player.

    I think Lin Dan's problem started earlier in the tournament when he was unexpectedly taken to rubber games and from then on, fatigue just kept on building up and reared its ugly head in the final. For the kind of player that Lin Dan is, fitness is of the essence. I am in no way disrespecting the quality of the players which have troubled him in this tournament, ie. Ng Wei, LHI, PG but if you remember Lin Dan's first rise up to dominance, he wouldn't let anybody touch him until the finals if that.

    So to conclude Taufik is the better player and deserved world champion not because he has beaten Lin Dan more times than the other way round, but because of the way he played all his matches throughout the tournament. ;)

    So well done Taufik. Your racket skills truly are breath-taking.
     
  9. Darth Andrianus

    Darth Andrianus Regular Member

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    I agree. The fact that Taufik won means he knows how to prepare for tournaments physically and mentally, win matches with as little physical strain as possible and understand and counter his opponents well. He probably understood as well that if he wants to win matches with as little physical effort as possible, technique is of the essence. Not only that, he also knew how to adapt to conditions beyond his control like the draft and fanatic chinese supporters rooting for Lin Dan. The man is a true champion and I salute that. Go Taufik!!!
     
  10. fanatico

    fanatico Regular Member

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    it has everything to do with lindan's matches prior to the finals, especially the 1h 40 min killer with peter gade. on the other hand, taufik had a easier time taming lee chong wei, who too did not have answer for taufik's onslaught. even though lindan is perceived as the fittest in badminton, with his flying smashes and groundbreaking dives, this loss proves that one cannot afford to play 3 rubber sets. fatigue had taken its toil on lindan, he was simply sluggish in the first set and even in the 2nd when he had 'pia-ed', it is evident that he was totally unable to overcome taufik on that day. his leg was all bandaged up with koyok, unlike taufik who merely had his usual patella guard.
     
  11. Kamikaze

    Kamikaze Regular Member

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    It seems that lin dan was fatigued during his match. he had a long match the day before playing against peter gade. that match lasted about an hour twenty minutes. while taufik made short work of lcw lasting about 20 minutes
     
  12. BoboTheBadder

    BoboTheBadder Regular Member

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    Working at the WC2005, I can give a lot of reasons for Lin Dan's disappointing display...

    Wind direction definitely counts into it. A lot of players complained about it, and you could literally see the plants courtside waving around because they were being blown around. Honestly, a good playing WILL adjust to these things quickly, but some do not. Let's face it though... the Chinese team did horribly at the beginning of the tournament, even the women. A lot of their play style rely on perfect shot placement to drag their opponents out of position before adding in the punch, and they weren't able to do that. But yeah... back to Lin Dan.

    Lin didn't look mentally prepared for the WC2005 at all. He would make simple mistakes that before this, you hardly ever see him make. He kept going into rubber games against people he should have been able to take down in 2 games easily. I was watching the Gade match courtside (with the photographers). Lin was doing well in game 2 but then it just seemed to all fall apart for him. He seemed very nervous for all of his matches and wasn't really playing to his ability. I'm going to be blunt and say this has everything to do with Li Yongbo. Li kept his players under a lot of pressure, and if you didn't notice, he would say something to them after EVERY rally. I think this added more pressure on the players, on top of their already overwhelming pressure. I think his over-instructing made the players confused (Lin Dan and Xie Zhongbo especially) and they didn't even know what to do anymore.

    Lin had even more pressure after the XD team lost. I talked to Xie Zhongbo after the match and he looked like he was about to cry. I'm pretty sure Li Yongbo gave him a mouthful. I was sitting with the Chinese team during the finals and I asked them what they had planned after the tournament. One of them (I forgot who) said that they were going to find a good restaurant for dinner after the MS match, but ONLY if Lin Dan wins. After Lin lost, I looked at their faces and they all looked very out of it. I'm not sure what they did the day after, but I'm pretty sure none of them got much sleep that night because the tournament was a big disappointment for them as a team.

    Playing style-wise, Lin is a highly offensive player and has to rely on people feeding him lifts. His skill with net drops are not up to par with Taufik's, so he was unable to mount any sort of offense against Hidayat. I'm not sure what was wrong... usually his drops aren't perfect, but they worked fine. In this tournament, they were all just horrible.

    For the most part, a lot of it comes down to experience. Taufik has been playing at the world class level for a much longer time than Lin. Taufik wanted to win. Taufik knew what he had to do. Taufik knew how to prepare. Lin didn't seem like he could get used to the wind, or the pressure, or his nerves. Taufik came into the tournament with something to prove, while Lin came into the tournament with something he HAD to prove. There's a big difference in that. I'm not saying that Lin didn't want to win badly... it's just that other people wanted or needed him to win more badly that he did himself. I'm just scared this is going to haunt Lin for the rest of his career to the point where he won't be playing at a top level again.

    Edit: I forgot to mention that I think this tournament proved Taufik is the better player overall, at least for the time being. I'm sure there are people who remember when Taufik couldn't win anything big either.
     
    #32 BoboTheBadder, Aug 23, 2005
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2005
  13. Brave_Turtle

    Brave_Turtle Regular Member

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    WoWW BoBo this was very good to read.

    Lin has the proper skill to win big tournament and he is still young. I guess you win some and you lose some...

    I'm sure Lin will bounce back and continue his straight wins.

    By the way, I hate LYB :mad:
     
  14. $100 Dreams

    $100 Dreams Regular Member

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    I agree with brave turtle...Lin Dan is still one of the best on the circuit! No one is perfect...i didn't manage to watch the match but apparently he was strapped heavily...2 and a half hours played against pg the night before had maybe taken a toll on him...

    Nevertheless, Lin Dan will still be the man to beat!!!
     
  15. taufik-ist

    taufik-ist Regular Member

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    lin dan's mental was not ready... look at when he played againts 'unknown' japan player sato, he almost lost :)

    lin dan will be haunted by taufik like chen hong.... taufik phobia is contagious among china players :)
     
  16. Simp84

    Simp84 Regular Member

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    I dont think u can complain about the wind...
    Because Lin Dan started out on the losing end..
    And this is one of the greatest strategy, 1st set is to wear out the opponent and then swap ends.... hopefully winning the 2nd set...
    and then the decider LinDan end up in the winning side
    Same goes to XieXingFang when she played against Cheng, however in woman single it was more visible that the wind was affecting the game play
     
  17. Hugo

    Hugo Regular Member

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    Very good points from everybody and good first hand description from Bobo. We have to keep in mind tho that when we are saying who's a better player or who's the best player in a discipline we are referring to the current time frame. At this point in time, TH has proven to be the better player. But when LD was winning tournament after tournament after tournament last year and the year previous, he was considered the top player. This is all very relative to a time frame. No single player can be top for an extremely pro-longed period (espeically in today's badminton). Remember how TH exited early in 2000 Olympics (when he was top seed) and also in 2003 WC? And now look how he's performing. The best player title has switched from LD to TH at this time. But who knows, next year this time, we may be in awe at how LCW has become the top player etc.....

    We've all pointed out Lin's strengths (how he tends to win) and his weaknesses. We and most likely himself knows that he is not a pure natural talent. But we see his physical abilities, fitness and explosivness that have gained him fame and amassed a load of GP titles. We also have to keep in mind, that at only 21 years of age, LD has accomplished a great deal at a very young age! He still has many more years left to strengthen his confidence, perfect skills and to improve his overall capabilities. In fact, if we look at the Chinese MS players, very few in recent times have done so much at such early age (definitely not matching LD). Sun Jun won his WC title at age 24, Xia Xuanze at age 25. LD hit his badminton high at a very young age and he may now be feeling the "recession" from that. Now, there's time for him to continue to develop himself into an even better player, by focusing on his weaker points and continue to work on his strengths. We may not have seen the best Lin Dan come out yet.
     
  18. BoboTheBadder

    BoboTheBadder Regular Member

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    I wasn't so much complaining about the wind as to commenting on it. It did seem to affect the Chinese players more though. The Chinese women seemed to rely on the side against the wind, and seemed to lose most of their matches when playing on the side with the wind. I think a good example was the XXF vs. the Taipei all-star Cheng Shao-Chieh, where XXF lost the first match on the side with the wind, won on the side against the wind, was losing on game 3 up to 6 points where they switched sides. (I think I remember this correctly). Anyway, that Taiwanese girl is awesome... and she's so friendly too. :)
     
  19. indra

    indra Regular Member

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    Taufik is without doubt a living legend in Badminton, just like Pele or Maradona. He is the most perfect Badminton player of all times. He has always been the man to beat in every tournament. If there were any inter-planet Badminton tournament, Taufik will be the right person to represent Planet Earth. I think it will be difficult for the rest of the world players to win in any tournament in which Taufik plays. Taufik is just like Mike Tyson in his golden time. Every player loses before they play.

    Now Li Yong Bo has to think very hard. He now realizes that the Thomas Cup will move to Indonesia. It is just a matter of time.
     
  20. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    I posted this already in another thread, but in the Press Media conference after the match, LinDan's body language seemed very "lazed" almost "uninterested" in talking to the media, and maybe even playing against Taufik. It happened also the night before also, after the SF match against PGade, same body language in the Press Media conference. Whatever it is, it seemed like his body and mind is not "energized".
    As far as injury, no, LD did not say anything about injury which led him to his defeat. However, he mentioned something about the court condition/AC draft which was bothering him esp. in the 1st set(LYB also mentioned about Taufik taking advantage of the same court he played on the night before). Taufik also said he was surprised to see LinDan played, even asking himself "is this the real LinDan??what is wrong with him??"..
    Overall, I would guess it's more of a psychological factor for LD, esp. playing against Taufik in a neutral court or outside of China. I'll say this, *IF* Taufik is motivated and have the right-midset and don't have any major injury, i highly doubt any MS player, that is active now, can beat him. Challenge him sure, like what Boonsak and KJ did, but i don't think can beat him. He said against Boonsak, it was probably "the toughest match" in the WC.

    Also, worth mentioning, the night before, after Taufik's SF match against LCW, a reporter asked him whether this is a "payback" for his defeat in the recent Malaysian Open. Taufik's answer was "not really, as he had promised to win 1 of the 2 tournaments coming in. Of course he injured his back a bit in the MO, but doesn't want to use it as an excuse. Plus it is held in Malaysia, so in a way, he doesn't mind if LCW beat him and let him win at his home town in front of his fans in the Malaysian Open"..

    OFF-TOPIC:

    Before leaving the Sunday's Press Media conference, Taufik said he has 2 more main goals to achieve as a player, that is to win the AE2006 and help bring back the Thomas Cup to Indonesia. Stay tune, we shall see..:)

     
    #40 ctjcad, Aug 24, 2005
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2005

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