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Thoughts about whether this is considered a fault?

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by InvincibleAjay, Dec 23, 2017.

  1. InvincibleAjay

    InvincibleAjay Regular Member

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    I was recently playing a league match. The following occurred. I was about 99 percent sure it was a fault but to keep the peace we let them have the point, we beat them easily anyhow so I wasn't too bothered overall ;) This occurred during a mens double match.

    A rally was taking place, however one shot from the opponent hit their frame and went straight up and then dropped just over to our side of the net. My partner was slightly slow to react to net kill it so he decided to do a tight harpin net shot. However the shuttle was going to fall on our side of the net after he hit it. The opponents came running in to try and hit the shuttle (as they didn't know it wasn't going over yet). Before the shuttle landed, their hit the net with their racket.

    I explained to them it was a fault and our point as the shuttle is deemed live until it hits the fall, albeit on our side. They hit the net before the shuttle hit the floor. His reply was it doesn't matter as the shuttle didn't go over.

    Has this happened to anyone else?

    Kindest regards,

    -Ajay-

    Quote of the Day
    I wanna hang a map of the world in my house. Then I'm gonna put pins into all the locations that I've traveled to. But first, I'm gonna have to travel to the top two corners of the map so it won't fall down.
     
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  2. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    The rules are clear: The first fault ends the the rally (§15). So whichever side commits the first fault loses the rally. Chronologically, the following faults could have happened:
    From what I understand, the shuttle hit by your partner did travel towards the opponents, so let's look at the next possibility. This should really be a fault, but historically, it's sorted under §15, with the same effect as a fault:
    From your description it's not clear if / when this happened. Next, the shuttle could have flown under the net or landed before it:
    Assuming that none of the above happened, indeed, the fault will be the opponent's:
    Again, per §15.3, after any fault has been commited, the shuttle is not in play. When the shuttle is not in play, the only possible faults until the next serve are red cards.
     
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  3. InvincibleAjay

    InvincibleAjay Regular Member

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    Sorry Phihag, I find it hard following you. Let me try and elaborate further.

    My partner hit the shuttle, the shot he played was tight harpin shot, hoping it would spin tightly over the net, it went upwards, at this moment the opponent tried to net kill it but hit the net with his racket. He missed the shuttle. The shuttle just went up and landed back on our side of the net. It did not hit the net. So which fault occurred first?

    Kindest regards,

    -Ajay-

    Quote of the Day
    I wanna hang a map of the world in my house. Then I'm gonna put pins into all the locations that I've traveled to. But first, I'm gonna have to travel to the top two corners of the map so it won't fall down.
     
  4. baronspill

    baronspill Regular Member

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    If your opponent hit the net before the shuttle landed, then they have committed the first fault and it should be your point.
     
  5. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    I apologize. Can you point out where you got lost in my post so I can improve it? I tried to list the badminton laws for all possible faults in this or similar situations.

    Then it's just as I assumed: neither §13.3.9 nor §15.1 applies. The only remaining faults from my post are §13.3.2 (shuttle touches the ground) and §13.4.1 (opponents touch the net). Since, by your description, the opponent touched the net before the shuttle hit the ground, your initial assessment and that of @baronspill are correct: it's your opponent's fault, the point is yours.
     
  6. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    In simple words :), what @phihag was saying is: your opponent is at fault when he touched the net unless the following occurred before that:
    1. your partner hit the shuttle and it traveled clearly away from the net
    2. shuttle touched the net and started to fall down on your side before the opponent's fault
    3. shuttle crossed under/around the net before the opponent committed the fault

    You have now all the tools to judge for yourself ;) what is the correct answer...
     
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  7. InvincibleAjay

    InvincibleAjay Regular Member

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    Thank you all for the clarification. Phihag I understand better, you stated all rules that could have applied, thanks for taking the time to do so. When I next see the person, I will kindly enlighten him with exactly which rule pertains to the situation so he is made aware incase it occurs in the future. I knew my instinct was correct, just needed to confirm it with others. :)

    Kindest regards,

    -Ajay-

    Quote of the Day
    I wanna hang a map of the world in my house. Then I'm gonna put pins into all the locations that I've traveled to. But first, I'm gonna have to travel to the top two corners of the map so it won't fall down.
     
  8. DeathMarkz

    DeathMarkz Regular Member

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    In my opinion, it is definitely a foul. When someone hits the net, with their racket, the opponent definitely should get the point.
     
  9. juneau-AK

    juneau-AK Regular Member

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    How about in this situation?
    (be patient as it loads slowly)


    --
     
  10. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    Same situation, just better players (I presume, no offense to @InvincibleAjay). When Victor Axelsen touches the net, the shuttle is still in the air (over the E in YONEX), ending the rally:

    upload_2017-12-28_14-43-49.png

    However, the umpire either didn't see the racket touch the net (maybe she thought the shuttle was in between racket and net) or thought the shuttle touched the ground before the racket touched the net. This is justified; per RTTO §4.4, umpires should not call fault if they are unsure.

    Calling the referee in this situation is pointless; per §17.5 and §17.6.8 the referee can only overturn the umpire in questions of law, not when it comes to any (fault/let/play on/in/out) decisions.
     
  11. InvincibleAjay

    InvincibleAjay Regular Member

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    Wow a good spot juneau-AK, and well done for Axelsen to then concede the next point for fairness.

    Kindest regards,

    -Ajay-

    Quote of the Day
    When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it.
     
  12. Rimano

    Rimano Regular Member

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    Hi all,

    Just wanted some more clarification on rule 13.2.2, because I would've thought that was what the opponent could've used in his defence. When can we apply this rule? If the shuttle has dropped below the net on his way towards the shuttle or does it have to physically pass under the net?

    In the situation when a defender attempts a lift for a drop shot that falls on the other side of the net, but the defender doesn't realise this, but hits the net anyway. Is this a case of who or what hits the net first? The shuttle or the player? I've always applied 13.2.2 here and given the point to the defender.

    Note: When I say applied, I mean as a player trying to follow the rules.
     
  13. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    No, that's not correct. And if you doubted it at the time, per ITTO §6.7 you shouldn't have called a fault.

    §13.3.2 applies if the shuttle passes the net, but not over, but to the side or under the net. You could also argue that a shuttle touching the floor on the striker's side is a fault per §13.3.1 or §13.3.2.

    As a general meta-rule, technical officials never call until a discrete event happens (that's why we wait to call Out until the shuttle touches the floor, even if it's in the middle of the neighboring court). In this case, if §13.3.2 were to apply before the shuttle crosses the net or touches the ground (let me be clear: that's not the case), there wouldn't be any clarity on when to call the fault: After the shuttle has been struck? After it is stabilized? When it goes below 1.524m?

    Bear in mind that a sudden gust of wind could still push the shuttle over the net.

    So until the shuttle either or touches the net and starts to fall (§15.1.), or passes under / at the side of the net, or touches the ground, or another fault happens (like any player on court hitting the net), it's still in play. The defender must learn not to hit the net.
     
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  14. SSSSNT

    SSSSNT Regular Member

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    In that Axelsen video, I'm not sure how an umpire is suppose to determine what touches first, the racket to the net or the birdie to the ground. It happened in an instant. Therefore, any decision the umpire makes must be an assumption. In my recreational match, it's always assumed fault when a player hit the net on his net kill.
     
  15. InvincibleAjay

    InvincibleAjay Regular Member

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    It's because in recreation matches, we don't kill the shuttle with the sharpness these pros do. So the racket probably hits the net before the shuttle hits the floor most of the time, lol.

    Kindest regards,

    -Ajay-

    Quote of the Day
    Those who say it can not be done, should not interrupt those doing it.
     
  16. juneau-AK

    juneau-AK Regular Member

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    Not so fast mister, hold your conclusion-summary on fairness. Count the scoreline after Axelsen does not contest the service return.

    Tien served at 8 : 13
    It should have been 9 : 13
    Instead it was 14 : 8, Axelsen service
    Axelsen does not contest return, so now it is 9 : 14.
     
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  17. Simeon

    Simeon Regular Member

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    I am a mathematcian, and I see, that VA should give two points to his opponent.
     
  18. whatsthecallUmp

    whatsthecallUmp Regular Member

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    Apparently, the thread is still active, so there ...

    That is all good to know. Like most of us, I read through all those possibilities and history and wondered what your recommendation would be - red card, as we now know.

    Please understand, there is no such thing as first fault.
    Chronology is the key as that helps to arrive at correct decision; see below.
    Everything else that could have happened just muddles up the situation.

    From the OP-description:
    and which was also clarified:
    Was the shuttle in play before the player hit the net? This is the only question to ask.

    The facts are then considered, and when what happened (the chronology), and then the lawbook is called upon.

    The OP description is clear - the shuttle was going to fall on our side of the net. Ergo, still in play.
    The OP also clearly writes - opponent hit the net with racket. Ergo, fault.

    The OP further writes that the opponent missed the shuttle and hit the net. As it is [still] not clear if the opponent hit the net while the racquet was on the OP's side, we do not have this as fact and can avoid using this information as the previous two are sufficient.

    A few times. As an umpire, 2x (twice) in more than 1200 matches, and seen it 2x more happen with other umpires.
    In club play, the frequency is much higher, and I distinctly recall more than a dozen, a few with racquet hitting a net and the rest touching net situations (some fellows cant put brakes apparently).



    Situation 1 is not clear. OP mentioned tight hairpin, not where the shuttle was hit. The only thing known is that it was going to fall on OP's side.

    Situation 2 did not take place - shuttle was going to fall on our side. Since opponent did not know it was not going over, it is safe to assume that the shuttle did not touch net.

    Situation 3 is additional scenario - there is no mention by OP about crossing under/over; the opponent committing fault is the OP inquiry as the OP is only 99% sure.
     
  19. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    The assumption is not necessary correct and in this situation it is critically important to know if the shuttle has touched the net as that can take it out of play...
     
  20. whatsthecallUmp

    whatsthecallUmp Regular Member

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    Ooo-oo good point, I had meant to write about this, and lost focus.

    During a rally, it will be out of play only when -- the shuttle after touching net (or post) is falling toward the hitter's side of the court.
    In the OP situation as initially described and then clarified, this is moot.

    However, lets consider the OP situation with the opponent in light of this.
    The decision is now - no fault by OP's opponent.
    The reason is, now - the rally ended when the shuttle started to fall down after hitting net (or post).

    I will wait for other situations related to shuttle touching net.
    [Hint: it involves shuttle maintaining contact with the net]
     

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