Too slow shuttles - The german problem

Discussion in 'General Forum' started by ucantseeme, Jul 14, 2017.

  1. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    :D Actually, despite @ucantseeme being the closest BCer I know of (he's not only in my state, but the same badminton region within the state), unfortunately I don't believe we've ever seen each other in real life.
     
  2. hew128

    hew128 Regular Member

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    Agree ... especially those groups in MEETUP who are only interested in making as much profit as possible per session organised.
     
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  3. kurdy_

    kurdy_ Regular Member

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    Thanks for your answers.
    In France, in every official tournament, there have to be an official (His/Her level depends on the level of the competition). But it doesn't mean that there are umpires or line judges. Just an official to check if the tournament takes place with no problem, make sure the tournament rules are respected and settle a disagreement between players.
     
  4. Rob3rt

    Rob3rt Regular Member

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    For me, I have these problems in training (with some people); the people at tournaments are most of the times very fair, following the rules and change the shuttle (if it's too slow or damaged) if requested.
     
  5. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    That's the same in Germany for tournaments - you can even request an umpire.

    However, in Germany, for many players most of the matches will be team matches between one home team and one away team. At lower levels (really all but the three top divisions), there are no officials there. It's often just 12 people in a 2 court-hall in a small town.

    Is the organization of club matches different in France? I'd very much like to hear how other countries organize badminton.
     
  6. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    I sometimes need to tip the feathers, based on the rules, in summer when I play at a smaller hall with a bunch of people. FME it depends where you play. A small 2 court hall is often very hot with even 20 people in summer. I normally play in a large 9 court hall, which is our default hall and well insulated and climated. That this hall don't get so hot during training with 20-30 people is maybe the explaination. I normally bend on hot days, too or when I decide the shuttle is too fast. But I don't do it on regular base.

    What me bother is the fact that a few people don't use the speed test before and bend on regular base (Pi mal Daumen) and ignore the result of the following speed test. This don't happen with alot people but regular with a few of them which I come across. At tournaments I don't have this experience of disagreement. 90% of the people are friendly and fair. My experience of disagreements are just a few, but enough to bother me because of the procedure how people ignore the speed test and treat the agreement, because there is no base for agreement.

    BTW I have seen you maybe a few years ago at Recklinghausen, but I'm not sure. Never met you on court.
     
  7. speCulatius

    speCulatius Regular Member

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    I cannot imagine @phihag arguing about too fast shuttles if he doesn't have a point. And I've never seen him changing the speed of a shuttle before testing it.
     
  8. kurdy_

    kurdy_ Regular Member

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    I can explain for South East (Provence Alpes Côte d'Azur) of France : in departemental team competition, there is no official. Home team captain is the one in charge of the organization of the day. For regional team competition, there is at least one official (R2) and in R1, there is an official and every team needs to have an umpire in the staff.
     
  9. Rob3rt

    Rob3rt Regular Member

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    I need to revive this thread as another incident is still bugging me although it has happened a few days from now. To the guys having similar problems (@s_mair, @ucantseeme, @Charlie-SWUK) but also everyone who wants to contribute, imagine the following situation:

    You get asked to play a game of mixed doubles, you say yes and warm up. Everybody is ready to play and one of your opponents passes the shuttle because you are the one to serve. You have a look at the shuttle and it's completely broken. And I'm not exaggerating, I wouldn't even warm up with a shuttle like that. Not only is it too freaking slow but also flying in a very weird way, I could tell just from having a look at it. I didn't even know how to react because I was so stunned. I mean, it's one thing not noticing a broken shuttle during the process of the game (in the heat of the moment), but to beginn a match with it?! Maybe I'm overanalyzing this or exaggerating, but a few things that are bugging me:

    - didn't they notice that it was broken? (I highly doubt it)
    - don't they care about the game, thinking that a shuttle like that is sufficient enough?
    - it's just not sportsmanlike to use a shuttle like that for a match when others provide new shuttles (same problem as when they provide used shuttles when asked for a change of shuttle)

    Either way, except for the first point which I can almost rule out, it's an audacity to do something like that, in my opinion. Don't get my wrong, I'm okay with playing with used shuttles that were used for warmup, but quite frankly, that shuttle was complete garbage.

    What do you think? Am I overreacting? What would you do in a situation like that?
     
  10. Ch1k0

    Ch1k0 Regular Member

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    That sounds like complete garbage and spitting in the face of fair play. I'd demand a new or at least unbroken shuttle and refuse to play if it isn't provided honestly.

    Sent from my LG-H990 using Tapatalk
     
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  11. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    What constitutes an acceptable shuttle quality differs greatly. Some high-level players are used to train only with shuttles that at least look brand-new. On the other extreme end, if the player is regularly training with extremely broken shuttles, they may not object to also play with them. Maybe they are in financial troubles and unable to afford good shuttles. Maybe their club is not organized well enough to get good training shuttles. Maybe they're playing in a lot of different clubs with huge differences in shuttles (say, including plastic) and are just used to a wide variety.

    You seem to overthink this a little bit. Have you considered simply asking them? Just show the shuttle and tell something to the effect of "This one's dead." and take a new shuttle from the pile or tube of new shuttles, or use your warmup shuttle if it's still good. No big deal.

    On second reading, the problem does not seem to be that they want to play initially with a broken shuttle, but that they don't bring any good shuttles. If that's the case, simply handle it like you would handle someone who does not bring any shuttles:
    • Make a short comment in the game
    • Talk to them in private afterwards
    • Work towards a club culture that everybody brings new or good shuttles equally
    • If all else fails, set up club rules like tournaments do. Something to the the effect of every player brings two new shuttles to each match.
     
    #31 phihag, Aug 10, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  12. Rob3rt

    Rob3rt Regular Member

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    Maybe I'm overthinking this. But I also think it's not as easy as you see it. Sorry for using this hyperbole but showing them the shuttle and saying it's broken is like asking some dude on the street punching you in the face for no reason to stop it, stating that it hurts. It's so obvious that it's broken, they just have to notice that. Which means it's an deliberate decision on their side and that makes it even worse. I think they feel like, that shuttle is okay (for me at least or for this game) if you don't like it you have to provide your own. I heard someone in one of the clubs I play say that he loves to purchase one of the extremely cheap and crappy shuttles because then he doesn't have to use them as often because people don't like those shuttles (obviously!) and will provide their own then. Even two or three in a row. I made the experience that it's the best decision to avoid players like that, no point in arguing. But I'm still open for suggestions and thanks for your point of view on this.
     
  13. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    I think it's dangerous to assume that everybody has what you see as common sense. I think these players are toxic, but many may not be maliciously so. Try imagining their perspective: They don't care as much as other players about the shuttle, so they just bring the very cheap ones. The effect is that their shuttles aren't used (plus), but they still get to play with great shuttles.

    Simply talking to them and saying them hey! that's not ok! already already creates an awful lot of peer pressure. When somebody first told me that I was expected to bring feather shuttles, I was quite thankful, but also a little shocked - I simply had no idea and was used to playing with plastic, where you buy one tube per season.

    Also, instead of avoiding them, make them avoid your clubs. A good club should have a good culture. Toxic players must either be reigned in with rules, or ejected out of the club. Otherwise, the bad behavior wills spread and good players will leave the club. Talk to the (official or unofficial) chairmen of the club and tell them of your concerns.

    Some clubs solve this problem by simply providing shuttles for all players. Of course, the membership costs are then significantly higher.
     
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  14. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    @Rob3rt

    I normally warm-up with a new or slightly used shuttle. So to me it is nonsense to have expensive rackets, string every few weeks and get cheap on shuttles. I'm not a high level player, but a good shuttle for a GAME is very important to me. I also made the experience, that people get cheap. Especially when the game gets towards the end. "A new shuttle? Hey it's just a few points" when the score says 16:19. I normally say that the shuttle is crap. From this point, I normally go to my tube and give the first brand new one. We will need 100% a second one and then it's even in training our opponents turn. BTW I prefer to play with just a small amount of partner, because I like to play with familiar or fixed partners.

    I experienced following: We have a box with used shuttles for feeding in training. At each session the used shuttles which were provided by the players get sorted and binned or fly in the box. I used to mark my shuttle for an experiment. Nearly 20% of shuttles have my mark on and they are decent for training as well. But if I step on court for a game, it's a situation to prove my skills in match situation, like during league and tournament and this means to me: The shuttle must be new or slightly used or in an acceptable condition. Acceptable condition means for many people different things, but when I count in that all players just spend 1€ for one AS20, I can't think about budget issues. IMO it's okay to use crappy shuttles for some drills, not all! But a game at club night? I would say it's fair to provide a new or slightly used shuttle. Maybe your opponents did a psycho trick. "Hey we give Robert the crappy warm-up mess and then he will provide a new shuttle." I experienced that the newer the car, the cheaper they get on shuttles. I would be also angry about this situation. You don't invite people and serve a bitten piece of cake and a half full cup of coffee. IMO it's question of respect. Normally I had solved the situation and provided the first shuttle. When I get angry I can't play.
     
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  15. Rob3rt

    Rob3rt Regular Member

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    Okay, I will try that at least once, although I'm gonna feel stupid for pointing out the obvious.

    Already happening, but that's another issue. One problem at a time. :D
     
  16. Rob3rt

    Rob3rt Regular Member

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    A while ago I couldn't understand people who are doing that, but now I've gotten to a point where I prefer to do that as well.

    Thank you! Exactly my thoughts!
     
  17. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    There will always be the cheap guys (and girls), but I wouldn't imply for most of them that they want to influence the match with it. Most of them seem to feel a terrible pain deep down inside somewhere when they need to bin a shuttle that carries at least 3 feathers. I'm fully with you though, starting a match with a battered shuttle like this is a no-go and, I would say that every player using feather shuttles is aware of that.

    So what to do in a situation like that? Here's what I would most likely do:
    a) simply put the shuttle besides the court and take a new one (normally, we make sure to have 1-2 spare shuttles prepared and ready)
    b) if anyone asks why (or even if no one is asking): add a short and possibly funny comment regarding the state of the shuttle
    c) if the guy is known for that behaviour, imply with your comment that this does make him look cheap

    If this happens in a competitive situation, there is no need at all for any kind of explanation. Just get rid of the shitty shuttle and grab a new one.
     
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  18. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    @s_mair to b) I dropped following about a shuttle in the past: "Der ist ja ausgefranster als die Rosette von nem Knastbruder." and put it aside. Even the girls on the bench were in stitches. :D
     
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  19. kurdy_

    kurdy_ Regular Member

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    Waooo ! And he still finds people to play with him ???

    When someone wants to start a game with an old shuttle :
    * In competition, it's not acceptable, I never saw that, and I'm not a top player.
    * In club, it sometime happens. I think it depends on the "level" of the player. In my club, they try to make everyone play with feather shuttles (to prepare to competition). So sometimes, you know your opponents (new badminton players) will have very unplayable shuttles or will break the shuttles while hitting one shot or just giving it back to you ! So I ask if everybody is ok to play with a plastic shuttle, and we do so
     
  20. Rob3rt

    Rob3rt Regular Member

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    Same here, it very rarely occurs in competition and is not a problem there. More so in training.

    No offense, but playing with plastics is even worse to me... :confused:
     

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