Too slow shuttles - The german problem

Discussion in 'General Forum' started by ucantseeme, Jul 14, 2017.

  1. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    I agree with you. I don't judge a shuttle before I tested the speed. Regardless if tipped or not, it doesn't matter. Normally I have the same shuttles at the court and as long as it is a home game or club night. But even in my club I observed that some prefer to tip as default while like me use the speed test. It seems to me that some want to slow down the game or want to prevent hitting out.

    I'm really curious how @phihag would communicate/debate these at a league game. As player and as umpire. I did always this "Hau den Lukas"-method and offered all involved players before the game to test the shuttle according to the rules. What I often came across was the fact that the shuttle landed towards the slower side of the acceptable window and even then it was "judged as too fast" which is indeed wrong.

    Experienced the same with Babolat 2. Especially if you play friendly, nice and fair opponents, I feel very bad to start a debate and count peas in terms of shuttles. I feel like I'm the weird guy who **** people up, but I just wanna play a game according to the rules to have a fair game for both sides, not more.

    Not knowing is a mistake by me. I mean they don't give it the importance for the subjective shuttle speed for a game and nego on it. Also the execution is a different story. Have often seen that some are doing a forehand drive/low overhead at hip height to add power. Also positioning is often a problem.


    It's nice to hear any point of view and struggle. I played with people from all over the world and especially the german /european ones seem to prefer slower shuttles. It seems that some people never learned to dose their force and use this as tactic/strategy to slow down the game. I feel sometimes really cheated on this. If I hit long, I need to adjust my stroke, not the shuttle.
     
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  2. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    From a law perspective, it's clear: A test has been done (by @ucantseeme), and the result was that the shuttles are in the acceptable range. There's really nothing more to discuss. If the test was done improperly, another player can perform it. But given that these players you play against cannot produce any other test, I'm not sure what their argument is.

    Note that if both players agree, unless they are playing at a very high-level tournament, they are free to agree to any other shuttle speed, including way too fast and way too slow. But that's not applicable here, since there is disagreement already.

    But remember that if you're playing without an umpire, you're playing for fun. And in a for-fun game, one should be more willing to compromise. So if the shuttle is straight on the doubles service line and barely lands within the acceptable range with tipping, then I would say that's fine, too.

    I'm surprised that everybody here seems to think that shuttles are too slow, especially at the moment in Germany. Just this weekend, I've had multiple players tip Yonex speed 3 every second feather, and some considering tipping every feather. And these were players who can certainly test shuttles (1st and 2nd Bundesliga).
     
    #102 phihag, Sep 8, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
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  3. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    I disagree: On a given day, especially within hours, high-level shuttles tend to fly quite similar. After all, the top tournaments rarely test more than once per day. In a tournament, if I've found the best speed of my shuttles for that day, and if these shuttles all fly uniform and are of the same speed designation, I just tip without testing if the opponents agree. But then, I play at a lower level where not all opponents know about tipping, shuttle speeds, how to test etc., and many tend to just agree to anything, provided they don't have to tip themselves ;) .

    In general, I think a good player should be able to adapt to almost any shuttle speed. I admire some (anecdotally often Indonesian) players who just play – and win – with anything with a feather on it.
    Opponent brings strangely fast shuttles? No problem! They'll make everybody in the hall hear their smashes.
    Opponent wants to tip an already-slow shuttle every 2 feathers? Not a problem! Now the same guys leisurely stand and intentionally lift too short so their opponents can tire themselves out smashing.
    Shuttle looks like the discard pile at many clubs? Great! Just play a little bit safer, the opponent will make the error on their own.
     
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  4. speCulatius

    speCulatius Regular Member

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    Which is almost what I said.
    Adapting a high defense to a weirdly slow shuttle is not that easy. Especially when the shuttle slows down during play, so you have too adapt to a new speed every time. We're not pros. We don't switch shuttles for every rally. That's one point where a comparison to pros fails.
    Another one is that the supply of shuttles will be from the same charge for pros. You cannot assume that for my level, that's why I said one shuttle per new tube should be tested.
     
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  5. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    If 4 beginner come to court and none of them can hit it above the acceptable window the shuttle is "okay" for their standard of play.

    That reached window by my opponents and my partner in the speed test can be different due technique. If we do the speed test and hit the same shuttle the beginner use above and agree to tip every 4th to get it according to the rules inside the window of acceptable speed we also have shuttle which is "okay" for our standard of play.

    If Mads Pieler Kolding and his teammates would do the speed test they would judge the untipped and our every 4th tipped as too fast based on the result they achieve inside the testing and tipp all, they also have a "okay" shuttle inside the rules for their standard. Even at the same time in the same gym.

    I understand the law that the speed test is related to the level and who test.

    As long as all 4th players on court did the test and the shuttle is too slow by the test the shuttle is too slow. I'm not talking about the case that Tim and Lukas can't hit it inside the window and Peter and Björn can and Tim and Lukas start to argue that the shuttle is too slow.

    If even the guy who hit it further than all others on court can't get it inside they are too slow. An even then I experience that someone tip and that's I'm gonna talking bout. I had often played shuttles which land in the midcourt during the speedtest of all involved players on court. If I can't reach it and my opponent can, I would accept it.
     
  6. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    I played last weekend on a tournament. While all my opponents in the group agreed with the shuttles, I had strange old lady who complaint 1.5 half sets about our shuttle. She is member of the club which organized the tournament and the whole family get involved in my shuttle choice. I offered the male opponent to do the shuttle test. He did. Even mine was on the slower side, but still okay inside the bounderies. Their own shuttle landed in the midcourt. I refuse to take it, because acording to the rules, because it was too slow. After each rally I was asked in a pissed of mood by the lady to change the shuttle, I refused and took the speed test as reference.

    Now I made a big mistake, after my shuttle was broken and I get asked 50 times to ditch the shuttle because it was according to the lady "too fast" I give in and gave their shuttles a try. A very big mistake by me to accept a too slow shuttle, because it gave them a huge advantage about us. While we had not any problems in the first set, we faced now that their tactic worked. To play to my backhand all the time to make my escape from the backhand more difficult. I wasn't able to play all 4 corners under pressure and while they excel in the return of serve game (the male player attacked it very decent, kudos to him) the slower shuttle prevented him too hit long even with a rushing force to drive it deep in the corner.

    We lost the game in 3 sets. I apologized to my partner, for beeing so weak to accept the slow shuttle. I felt really uncomfortable to discuss all the time after each of our rallies.

    How would you react to such opponents? I was angry about myself to couldn't take the psychological pressure of the opponent, I was angry about my skills, because I couldn't flick it into the corners deep enough. I talked after the game to the lady that I didn't understand her excessive complainment, because according to the rules our shuttles was the right speed. Her arguemtn was that she normally didn't hit so often long. I argued, maybe you are used to play too slow shuttles, but we can't choose a shuttle which is off according to the rules to fit your lacking control to hit it in. She walked away and left me puzzled. I'm really angry about myself, my give in and the fact that a lot people are so used to use too slow shuttles too make their tactics work.

    During the tournament me and my partner also discovered that a lot players don't do the speed test correct, judge shuttles in terms of speed to personal favour instead according to the rules. Shuttles got hit at the doubles service line with a racket pointing upwards etc. Why does so many people don't know it right? We what an A class game with a superb player, but even he seems to prefer a slower shuttle and did the speed test wrong.
     
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  7. Ballschubser

    Ballschubser Regular Member

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    I think, that the speed test does not consider the power with which a player needs to hit the shuttle. When people at my club (germany too, lot of >50 yo) do the speed test, it never reached inside the official boundaries, it always comes short or, when it reached the boundaries, it will be slowed down.

    The argument is, that they are not as powerful as young players to hit the shuttle long enough.

    Well to some degree they do the right thing. Consider a young player who is able to powerfully hit a shuttle inside the boundaries and an weaker, maybe older, player who use a faster shuttle to hit inside the boundaries too. If the younger player would play with the older player, then the shuttle speed would not match. So, as weaker/older player it would be better to play with shuttles he can only hit short of the boundaries, so that he could compete with younger players using a matching shuttle speed.

    I think, that this is a shortcoming of the speed test, it does not consider power and age. Once a player starts to target an area outside the official boundaries, the shuttle speed will be more of a personal/club preference which will be hard to match in inter-club competition.
     
  8. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    I personally didn't experienced that an experienced player past 50 didn't have not much power for the speed test. I agree that they are might be less fit with some pinching in every joint and the back and can't perform a jump smash anymore, but still they are able to hit it. IMO not an age issue for my case.

    For my case: the old lady (50) judged the shuttle on the base that she lifted it long from the front court. She didn't tested the speed, my partner also didn't tested the speed. I also didn't tested the speed, because I tested the role before. I offered the male opponent of the pair to test the shuttle before the match, because younger than me and I know he hit pretty hard. He did it the correct way with the outcome that their shuttle land midcourt, mine/ours 30cm infront of the doubles service line. The lady said mine is to fast. I argued according to the rules bla blubb. The lady get mad, the male said "fine, everything okay". We started the match and after each rally the lady started a discussion and cursed the shuttle. We were solid and didn't agreed to change it.

    Than my mistake occured. My shuttle was broken, the lady started the discussion a 50th time (that's not exaggerated, she really complained after each rally). Here club members family also jumped in and I gave in, because I was annoyed by that and gave their shuttle a try, which made their tactic work to prevent me to hit long and deep enough from my backhand under pressure ( crosscourt, which is for XD IMO the most beneficial shot to take the press out, because the male stands committed to longline side, anticipating the straight backhand clear or the flat stroke longline, when he attack the serve of my partner, lady cover just mid and front court of the opposite side). I was really angry that I gave in, because the crosscourt clear from my backhand (I know I can improve in this department, but for the actual situation not a solution) often neutralized their pressure and made us turn the rally. For reference for you age aspect: Lady 50, male opponent below 30, my partner and I around 30.
     
  9. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    @phihag can likely clarify but if I remember rightly it's based on the stronger hit.
     
  10. speCulatius

    speCulatius Regular Member

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    Well, If I understood correctly, nobody hit it too long during the speed test, so there really was no reason calling it too fast, especially after one of the opposing team agreed on the speed.

    I think that's where the frustration is coming from. That is what happens way to often here in Germany: People arguing that a shuttle is too fast while not even hitting it to the doubles service line when testing the speed.
     
  11. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    I feel you, if people can't smash clears they think it's too fast.
     
  12. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    The most of my anger goes towards myself because I gave in and didn't stand strong. No excuses, clearly my fault, but I learned my lesson. But this discussion inside the game over and over again after each rally made me really sick, feel bad, influenced my concentration and take any fun to play tournaments and badminton at all.

    I played them twice this year and last time we used same shuttle at same speed and no complainments because they won and never get into danger. My partner and I trained since then hard. We traveled to play decent opponents and train different ways. This meeting, we clearly dominated them and got penetrated by the lady with the change of shuttle, the guy was laid back and accepted that they(she) were(was) unable to hit it in. Especially when you hit from the front court, you need a delightful touch to don't hit it long on lifts, especially when you wanna lift flat to put pressure on or kills with no angle.
     
    #112 ucantseeme, Oct 15, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
  13. speCulatius

    speCulatius Regular Member

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    And they'll use it against you when you still hit the too slow shuttle out when trying to find the correct length and thus losing out on control, because you have to hit it much much harder.... I know that feeling.
     
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  14. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

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    The speed test comes down to experience and technique. I'm young and strong and still struggle to perform a consistent, good contact speed test. I do also use a "full underhand stroke which makes contact with the shuttle over the back boundary line", however, as @ucantseeme mentions, I do it more like a forehand drive (racquet head above grip). It is still a full underhand stroke in my mind as the hand itself is low... @phihag - what is the definition of a full underhand stroke? I've always struggled to find a good explanation with regard to shuttle, racquet head, hand, elbow, shoulder, hip relative positions (where relevant).

    In any case, I've come up against 65 year olds who have a much stronger speed test than me with what definitely would count as a full underhand stroke taken behind the back line. Incredible technique. I went on to three set win against some of them in singles, simply because I have superior fitness and footwork, but not racquet skill. The whole point of the speed test is that your physical fitness doesn't factor in as much as technique and racquet skill.
     
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  15. speCulatius

    speCulatius Regular Member

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    So you strike above your hand. In what universe can that be an underhand stroke? Doesn't 'underhand' mean underneath the hand?
     
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  16. Ballschubser

    Ballschubser Regular Member

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    Yes, it seems that the speed test is a skill in its own way. I'm still not able to do it probably, so I rely on the other players when it comes to speed check the shuttle, but all shuttles they test do not reach the offical boundaries.

    Though there are a lot of older players, these players are still experienced (some played in the 4th league, one is actually world senior champion in XD), some still strong enough to play a backhand clear backline to backline, still the shuttle test comes short and all seem to be happy with it.

    As "new" player I'm still really puzzled about how to perform a speed test, because this looks more like a test on the basis of gut feeling. Thought ucantseeme is annoyed about himself about accepting a shuttle not conform to the rules, I believe, that the current approach of testing the shuttle speed, atleast in germany, is an issue which will lead to conflicts during competition.

    A speed test should be less like a skill, e.g. a reference ball which is not prone to temperature/air humidity, both, this ball and a shuttle, dropped from the top of the net, should touch the ground at the same time. Something like this.
     
  17. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

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    In many English speaking areas. It's not a precise definition:

    underhand, underhanded, underarm(adj)
    with hand brought forward and up from below shoulder level
    "an underhand pitch"; "an underhand stroke"

    Let's contrast that with overhand, shall we:

    overhand(adj)
    (especially of a throw) made with the arm moving above the shoulder:
    "an overhand throw/serve"

    The main concept when someone talks about underhand motion is that it's hit under shoulder level in normally a tennis-style groundstroke movement, but there is nothing explicitly said about the contact point. English is not exactly a consistent language, so you cannot break down the word simply, or even particularly compare it with 'overhand' to be fair, which is why I'm asking what the precise badminton definition is from @phihag
     
    #117 DarkHiatus, Oct 15, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
  18. LenaicM

    LenaicM Regular Member

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    Official shuttle test video from the BWF. That's exactly how I test shuttles. I see players doing anything possible at tournaments including trying shuttles doing a high serves mid court :eek::D.

    EDIT: I guess that video demonstrates what an underarm stroke means for the BWF.

     
    #118 LenaicM, Oct 15, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
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  19. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    Let's face the truth - looking at the video, the rate of correct speed testing procedures that I have witnessed in the past 20 years performed at club level around here is zero. First issue is that on many courts it's impossible to stand that far behind the backline due to space limitations. And even if there is enough space, I seriously can't remember seeing anyone not standing on or within a couple of centimeters to the backline when they hit the shuttle (including myself I have to admit). And on top of that, a vast majority of speed testers will try to hit the shuttle with a lot more force and a more drive'ish swing than demonstrated in the video.

    Bottom line - if a testing procedure is based on so many human variables, the results will differ a lot. Up to a point at which it's questionable if the procedure even makes sense at all.
     
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  20. LenaicM

    LenaicM Regular Member

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    Many human variables I agree. Yet there has to be an official/normalized way of testing shuttles.

    To be honest I don't argue for too long during tournaments even less during friendly or training matches when it comes to shuttle speed. Instead I try to adapt. When a shuttle loose a feather mid rally it's not a let... so we constantly have to adapt our game with so many variables. I guess that's part of the game for amateurs.
     

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