Toyota THAILAND Open 2021 (S1000) : R/32-FINAL (19-24 January)

Discussion in '2021 Tournaments' started by CLELY, Jan 18, 2021.

  1. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Personally, I don't see it that way at all. Putting aside the behavioral aspect and screaming - I don't even enjoy watching her particularly. To put it bluntly, most of what makes her successful above others (imop) is her speed and power - she can pull up the pace more than basically anyone else and has great angles and attack, but she looks pretty awkward to me, especially in her RTH corner. Obviously she has great touch, and decent technique, but she's not beyond others in the elite in those regards (imop).
    If I'm going to watch WS, I'd much rather watch a match like RI vs TTY - superb technical players, and much more aesthetic to watch (and hear). If I just want to see more pace and athleticism, I'll simply watch MS instead, that's leagues ahead of Marin can do as well, so I personally don't ever feel like I need to watch her. Similar story for PVS.
    Now, that's no criticism of them at all, after all they're trying to win every way they can, and it's not at all their fault that they've different statures and movement patterns than other players. I just don't watch badminton to see someone win, I want to see something beautiful, and to me Marin's game isn't. Same reason I didn't immediately enjoy watching LD, his game was more of an acquired taste to me, I preferred TH, PG, Chen Hong,...

    Taste is individual though, so don't take this as a statement that no one should see all this the same way I do, much less only enjoy the same players I enjoy watching :D
     
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  2. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Fully agree on that. It's Antonsen's information to share, and while HKV could speculate and probably get a better guess in than us, knowing AA much better, I'm pretty sure he won't want to talk about a teammate's struggles too much.
     
  3. hyun007

    hyun007 Regular Member

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    Not just the noise. Her delayed of serve is as bad as Rafael Nadal. The Umpires are too generous with her.
     
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  4. Yoji

    Yoji Regular Member

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    it means players will feel more tense in stadium with fans. just look at their LeeWang last points against AhsanHendra in INA masters/ WC against HokiKoba.

    I know it will work on LeeW advantage thats why i bet on them. Just a consternation.
     
  5. Yoji

    Yoji Regular Member

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    100% axelsen will win. He is coming for Momota. Not much between them with 2 more axe titles.
     
  6. CraftyFun

    CraftyFun New Member

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    This previous year should have been an opportunity for these athletes to improve their physical fitness to a level unlike what you can reach under the usual conditions, where you are traveling most of the year.
     
  7. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    no need. you're doing that just fine on your own... :D :p :rolleyes:
     
  8. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    a little homework for you:
    1. do more players scream or not scream?
    2. is that # increasing or decreasing?
    3. what 3 things have to happen to make you stop watching badminton?
     
  9. mohans

    mohans Regular Member

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    Glad to see VA is stamping his authority with these superlative performances in the last two weeks. When you compare him with KM, he still has a mountain to climb. If I’m not wrong, VA hasn’t won any tournament in which KM participated. That (...considering true) is a mind blowing statistic to put any comparisons to bed


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  10. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    from the outside it may look like he needs one, but, a coach only works if a player wants a coach. if one were forced upon him by his federation what's to say ctc would not just tune the coach out? what guarantee is there a coach would make a difference?
     
  11. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    uhhh... antonsen's on instagram. i'm just sayin'... you could cut out the middleman.
     
  12. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Many players weren't allowed to train in the gym for a long time, so they might not have been able to work on their badminton-specific fitness much. I think VA put the time to good use with his home gym, his legs look a bit bigger and he seems stronger and more stable than ever.

    It is if you don't consider the concept of matchups and how certain styles counter others. If Axelsen were to win 50-100% more titles than Momota (keeping that same ratio in majors), yet still had a very negative H2H against him, would you say Momota was the better player or would you maybe consider that he just had a good matchup against Axelsen and countered his style naturally?

    Not saying that he's better rn, but it's a bit simplistic to hang everything on H2H in a sport where the opponent influences your own actions (counter-examples would include most of track&field, shooting, bowling, archery,....)
     
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  13. Hbmao

    Hbmao Regular Member

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    This is too hypothetical, any example in any individual sport that two of the best players have a one sided H2H? If not it’s much safer to assume H2H has a positive correlation with their achievements (again talking about two players both at the top of the sports, not 1 great player vs his “nemesis”)
     
  14. baddiechan

    baddiechan Regular Member

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    Well yes true, he would need to be willing as well to take on what the coach has to offer. Only of he is open to a second opinion is there a possibility to improve beyond what he can by doing it alone.
     
  15. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Counter-example to that statement that sprang to mind instantly was RF and Nadal, iirc Nadal has a fairly positive H2H against RF yet there's no correlation to achievements, they're almost dead even.
    If both players stay healthy and dominant at the same time, ofc the achievements would mostly mirror the H2H as they'd be likely to meet in the finals a lot
     
    #355 j4ckie, Jan 23, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
  16. baddiechan

    baddiechan Regular Member

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    Depends on what you mean by the top of the sports, would this include players within top 100? If you look at Chou Tien Chen he has some horrible H2H match ups against lower ranked players. Ginting is 0-6 against Shi Yuqi as another example.

    I definitely think that ranking/titles correlates to a better player most of the time. This also needs to be observed against the number of tournaments played.

    With most tournaments being knockout it's only natural that you have the best players going against each other more. That's why LD and LCW had so many encounters because they dominated the rest of the competition.

    The only thing that matters is how the players do in the day. If there's a trend then it's probably a mental barrier making your game easy to read and you aren't adding enough variation.

    For the top like Kento Momota, Lin Dan and Lee Chong Wei they just played so well that they didn't need to vary their game plans that often.
     
  17. mohans

    mohans Regular Member

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    I get your point. The point I was trying to make was comparison between VA and KM can’t be drawn just on the number of titles each one of them won. The sampling set should comprise of the tournaments they both participated. IMO, KM is the undisputed #1 in the last 2 years or so. He has impressive h2h against every top 10 player currently. He is the huge favorite to win any tournament he enters. If VA aspires to be regain his wr1, he needs to find a way tackle the KM factor. Having said that, I don’t expect him to reverse the h2h. However, he needs to bring victories against KM to the table.


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  18. Hbmao

    Hbmao Regular Member

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    Interesting, Federer is 16-24 vs Nadal but 2-14 on clay among those games. This actually correlates well to their achievements on clay. You said it in the last part, if 2 players are dominant that would mean they meet in the final a lot, and if one keeps beating the other, then he will win more titles, it’s really as simple as that. So the hypothetical scenario is really: if Momota retires today and Axelson went on to win a couple of more majors and dozens more SS, how will we compare them? In that case I’d think longevity trumps temporal brilliance (e.g Graf vs Seles?), most players in GOAT discussion have long careers : P
     
  19. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Well, I happen to agree with the point you just made entirely - I also don't think the number of titles alone is enough to judge players and their careers. Context always matters, and a lot of factors can have an influence. I just also happen to think that H2H in a play sport doesn't necessarily coincide with the overall greatness/strength of a player or even team, as stylistic matchups can play a role. A massive skew in one direction would probably not be explained by that alone, but a significant advantage can be. For example, I think KM's style almost perfectly counters VA's. VA has pretty good attack, but will run out of gas eventually, and isn't very quick to change direction. KM's defense can withstand his attack pretty well most of the time, and he his very good at not giving his opponents a lot of good attacking opportunities. His counter, in turn, is Ginting, who struggles vs a lot of other players and doesn't have comparable achievements (yet), but has a great H2H against Momota. Just quick enough to get follow-up kills on attack, very good around the net to create attacking opportunities...
    Anyway, I digress. Overall, I agree with you that # of titles isn't a good metric to measure a player's achievements and strength. The importance of them plays into it as well, and stories matter too - if VA wants to be considered the best at some point, he will have to get some wins vs KM, similar to how LCW got some over LD and could have gotten into the GOAT conversation had he won, say, the 2011 and 2012 major finals, and maybe one more WC later (vs LD or CL).
     
  20. kurako

    kurako Regular Member

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    I am a bit lost in the mathematics here. So, you consider 4-11 to be a "great H2H" against Momota? The scoreline/game count maybe tighter than with VA, but the H2H is fairly dismal. And, it is the final kill that counts.

    In 2019 it was difficult to find any player whose style successfully countered that of Momota. However, the tide may well turn in 2021. Momota, at the All Japan Championships last month did not appear fully 'match fit' (... although he may have been infected with Covid-19 at the time). And, the fact that Bird Japan has had to withdraw from this leg of the international tournament schedule will probably affect their performance detrimentally. The same applies to China.
     
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