Victor should just release a "Bravesword 12 Pro" with stiffer and head heavier BS 12

Discussion in 'Badminton Rackets / Equipment' started by ChocoChipWaffle, Nov 24, 2019.

  1. ChocoChipWaffle

    ChocoChipWaffle Regular Member

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    Seriously it's no secret that they will never match the racket sales of BS 12, despite their efforts with auraspeed line. So why not just do themselves (and us) a favor and release more versions of the classic?

    Just call the racket "Bravesword 12 Pro" or "Bravesword 12 KRP" and give it a slightly stiffer shaft and a slightly heavier head to match the same specs as the BS12's they gave to the pros back in the days. It would attract a huge amount of advanced players who always wanted to buy them but couldn't, and the ones who like the original BS12's can just stick with buying the regular BS12s. I mean it's not hard, there's no R&D involved in just giving the racket a stiffer shaft and heavier head, so why not?

    There's no racket in the market that gives that classic bravesword feel other than a bravesword, so why not do us a favor and give us what we want, and they can deservedly profit off of that? I mean what am I missing here.
     
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  2. Sundis

    Sundis Regular Member

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    Great idea! Victor also need to start making MX80 original color and TK9000 again
     
  3. ChocoChipWaffle

    ChocoChipWaffle Regular Member

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    I think TK9000 is back in production, it's a made in China and the paint job is different, only available in 4u and 5u though so 3u users aren't in luck

    https://scontent-icn1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=b712c7d0928c5796d387cb4a07070704&oe=5E8C373E

    And if they do make a new BS12pro, i hope they don't integrate the new technologies to it, like the WES or whatever. No need to mess with perfection. In fact, just give me a stiffer shaft, the head heaviness is something I can add with lead tape anyways.
     
  4. Leemarc28

    Leemarc28 Regular Member

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    How are you sure that a stiffer and head heavier BS12 is the ideal racket for all current bs12 user. Everybody preference is different. Some like to increase stiffness by abit, some prefer more stiff. Likewise to head heavy, some like abit and some like more. No end to all these.
    So far closest to a BS12 with a stiffer shaft is auraspeed 90s. Give it a try.
     
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  5. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    IMO the classics, became classics because or the korean team, their success and their loyalty to the BS12 which got used at a 50% rate and higher. I wouldn't give the credits to this racket alone and my personal impression was that I never understand the hype. Without LYD, YYS and many others this racket didn't get any attention based on paper. I remember pretty well when I bought back in 2010 my first BS10 and discovered that the BS12 is on the launch.

    Is your intention to get a throphy used by your idols, or because you liked the racket so much? Didn't BS LYD, BS11, BS10, BS LHI ticked all this boxes for you? All head heavier than the BS12 and stiffer. I don't get why you ask for a modified racket and not one of these which tick all the boxes?

    I don't know what you mean with an advanced player, but from my understanding advanced players get contracts with brands. They don't get them for free but at a high discount of 50%. As mentioned above without any pro players who win titles in a row, how should Victor gain any new attention to such a racket when they bring it out? I think this is not a smart move. 50% moved on and changed to a different model. Maybe a few die hard fans and collectors are keen to buy it and this is not a huge group to target.


    Why an modified BS12, why? Why do you not ask for any of the mentioned above models?

    Some will come and say the same about MP, AT (both Yonex) or the SW or MX line. The new MX80 and BS11R didn't got many attention. I find it on regular base at discounted price. An indicator that the power of people who loves revivals is quite low. Apacs, Forza, Fleet have some BS-ish racket in their line up. Have you ever tried one of these? I got the impression that you ask for a better suiting collectors racket instead of a racket which suits all you needs regardless the model name.

    BS12 KRP is also available(2nd hand). I have seen it a few weeks ago.

    IMO Victor is in serious trouble without any titles winners in a row as poster boys for their products and they have atm other priorities. E.g. not to drop into a 2nd or 3rd tier brand.
     
    #5 ucantseeme, Nov 25, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  6. ChocoChipWaffle

    ChocoChipWaffle Regular Member

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    I wish I could just find the perfect replacement. For the record, I am a hard hitter who owned BS 10 and am struggling to find a replacement. In a perfect world, they would make a new BS10 that is half a notch less stiff (that would be my perfect racket), but I don't expect Victor to make a racket that niche, so I'm hoping for a slightly stiffer BS 12 that would still be user friendly enough for good sales.

    And let's be honest, the BS 12 outdwarfs MX 80 and BS 11 in sales, a special edition of BS 12 will surely sell better than those two. Not to mention the MX80N and the BS11R took away all the great things of their predecessors, the hard feel in the case of MX80 and the sword frame of the BS11. I'm hoping for a BS 12 Pro that doesn't try to add too much "new stuff" like the MX80N that strips away its roots.

    In fact, I tried to look elsewhere in the market for a BS substitute in this thread
    https://www.badmintoncentral.com/fo...victor-rackets-with-braveswords-frame.177965/

    The problems were
    Fleet (Felet) - only readily available in certain parts of Asia
    Mizuno - same as above. Also rumors of dampened feel
    Forza - Availability aside, the lack of popularity in many parts of the world makes it hard to find stringers who are familiar with the Forza racket's unique stringing pattern, potential exposing my racket from bad string jobs and therefore frame damage.
    APACS - the only racket that they have that has the sword profile that is available in my region (AVP?) is just as flexible as BS 12
    Other brands - availability is even scarcer

    Really, only the bravesword has that combination of undampened feel on contact and aerodynamic feel when swinging (feeling of slicing air). Auraspeed 90s is close, but still doesn't have that equal feel. In fact, I think a lot of people can agree, Bravesword has one of the best, unique feels, and no modern racket line from any of the major companies have yet to replicate it, including Victor. At least in the cases of other classics like Armortec 700, or other boxframe classic rackets, I've found suitable modern replacements that can help me forget about them. In the bravesword's case, it's so unique and I feel like they had a perfect formula, I just want them to keep making it. Hopefully a slightly stiffer version because I heard numerous reports that the commercial one can be a bit soft for hard hitters.

    And let's be honest, most classics are discontinued because majority of the popular classics were made by yonex, and they have no problems discontinuing popular rackets because their dominance in the market means they can sell the newer ones just as well. In the case of Victor or pretty much any other badminton manufacturer, this is not the case. In fact, if Yonex only owned a small portion of the market and their biggest seller (by far and away) was, let's say the Ti10 for example, it would be really stupid for them to have ever discontinued it.

    If victor doesn't want to make new braesword 13 or whatever it's fine by me, it's fine that they want replacement lines with auraspeed or jetspeed. But at least keep the legacy of BS 12 going by adding a special edition BS 12 or something.
     
    #6 ChocoChipWaffle, Nov 25, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
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  7. ChocoChipWaffle

    ChocoChipWaffle Regular Member

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    Also from my experience, I heard a lot of people say they love the BS 12, but wished it was just a tad better for smashing because they said the shaft is quite flexible. And it's not just one or two instances, many many people in real life say this, and from everything I gather from the lucky BS12 KRP owners, in general they seem to prefer the KRP's to the commercial versions as well. I think the niche is definitely there for a slightly stiffer, pro edition. In terms of popularity, Bravesword 12 is probably the only non-Yonex racket that can go toe to toe with any of the most popular Yonex rackets in the last 10 years, there are lots and lots of users out there, even now. Ones who break BS12 and go buy a new BS12 in 2019 because there simply is no suitable replacement that's readily available. In fact, I could make a great case that it might be THE most popular racket of the 2010's.

    I just want to ask the other users of BC this: if Victor started making a Bravesword 12 Pro Special Edition and give us a slightly stiffer and head heavier BS 12 (spec'ed similar to the KRPs, MYPs etc) and make it available in your shop, would you buy it? I know I certainly would

    To clarify: I'm not asking the original BS 12 to be discontinued. I'm asking for a BS 12 Pro to be ADDED alongside BS 12 original
     
    #7 ChocoChipWaffle, Nov 25, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
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  8. R20190

    R20190 Regular Member

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    This is a really good idea except, I wouldn't want a head heavier version personally. I have 15+ BS12's and they are all slightly different both in terms of stiffness and balance. The ones that are head heavy I never tend to use. I only use the ones that are slightly head lighter than average or right in the middle in terms of balance.

    I was using my Auraspeed 90S last night and accidently brushed the ground as I played a low backhand and the frame just collapsed. The second Auraspeed 90S I have broken in the last couple of months. So I ended up picking up my trusty BS12 again midway through a game and it immediately reminded me how good this racquet is. Back to back, it felt so much better than the 90S.

    I genuinely believe Victor will find it very very difficult (if not impossible) to better the Bravesword range and indeed, in my opinion at least, they have failed to do so thus far with the Jetspeed and Auraspeed ranges. I would be more than content to use a bravesword for the rest of my playing career.

    My ideal braveword is actually the BS11/LHI simply because it is stiffer than the BS12, otherwise a slightly stiffer (and not too head heavy) BS12 would be the perfect for me.
     
  9. R20190

    R20190 Regular Member

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    I think there is a misconception with BS12 KRP racquets. I personally don't think there is any difference from commercial versions.

    I have quite a few commercial BS12 (as well as KRPs) and there is a significant variation in the stiffness and balance of the BS12s. Some are as stiff as a Bs11/LHI while others does feel very floppy. I don't have a problem smashing with the BS12 and I am generally considered one of the harder smashes at the clubs I play. But on average, I think the BS12 has more than enough power.
     
  10. Sundis

    Sundis Regular Member

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    I know that, but if they dont make a 3U then there is no point for me :(
     
  11. ChocoChipWaffle

    ChocoChipWaffle Regular Member

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    in your experience is it the headlighter ones play stiffer (or tad less floppy as you call it) than the head heavy ones when doing power strokes? Or do you have BS12's that are headlight and also floppier than average? Because technically if they had the same shaft, it's the head lighter ones are supposed to play stiffer. If you like your BS12's on the less floppier side, I think I can agree with you in that, for me at least (a back court player),getting a slightly stiffer version of BS12 would be more important than having a head heavier version.
     
    #11 ChocoChipWaffle, Nov 25, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  12. R20190

    R20190 Regular Member

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    Yes, if it is head lighter it will have the effect of making the shaft feel stiffer. Although there is an element of that, there is still some variation in the stiffness as well. You can tell by bending it with your hands. Some of my BS12's are indeed as stiff as my BS11/LHI, although most of them are not. Also, some of my commercial ones are a fraction stiffer than my KRP ones too.
     
  13. ricksakti

    ricksakti Regular Member

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    Nice reading about BS 12
     
  14. R20190

    R20190 Regular Member

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    It's been an interesting journey for me in discovering this racquet. Many people think that BS12 users only use the racquet because of the ex-Korean MD doubles players and I guess that may be true for some, but certainly not for me.

    Despite being a fan of LYD and the old Korean team, I avoided the BS12 as I didn't like the colour scheme and the specs on paper didn't seem to suit me. So for a long time, I was using the BS11, BS10 and BSLHI. I have a BS09 and BSLYD but again never got along with them.

    The BS11/LHI still remains my favorite racquet although I'm not a fan of any of the ex-players that used them, it was simply the perfect racquet for me, it has everything.

    I picked up a BS12 to try after struggling to get hold of any BS11/LHI and was very skeptical at first. I was prepared not to like it but as on paper the shaft would be too flexible for me and this is something that was quite important to me. But to my surprise my initial thoughts was not bad at all.

    Yes it was not quite as stiff as my BS11/LHI which meant that ultimate power wasn't quite as high but it wasn't that bad and I wasn't sure why.

    It essentially had easier access to power due to the more flexible shaft but to my surprise it offered slightly different characteristics. The BS12 actually has a shorter shaft and this makes all the difference. So despite it being more flexible on paper, it isn't actually that far off a BS11 but the shorter shaft means it reacts quicker on shorter strokes. So I could actually deliver more power than my BS11 on shorter, non-full power shots such as drives, defense etc. But it retains that very solid head which I love.

    Since then I have tried quite a few racquets including those from Victor, Yonex and LiNing's fast frame series but I have not been able to find anything that is as good or better than the Braveswords. The Auraspeed 90S was close but still lacked a lot from both the head stiffness and speed. Durability is also a concern as I've broken 2 of my 3 ARS90S in the last few months.

    As a collector with one of the largest collection of badminton racquets on the forum, I have been privileged to have had the opportunity to try a lot of racquets and observe the development of racquets over the years. I am convinced that the Bravesword series and in particular the BS12 and 11/LHI are (in my opinion at least) the best racquets ever made (for doubles). If I can have a large stash of BS11,12/LHI or if Victor continue to make these racquets, I will not need to consider any other racquet again - and that is coming from someone who has amassed over 100 racquets.
     
    #14 R20190, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  15. ChocoChipWaffle

    ChocoChipWaffle Regular Member

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    that's my biggest point also - that victor and the industry as a whole, has not made doubles racket better than the Bravesword I had, which was made 10 years ago. All the other classic rackets I've tried IMO has been bettered or found suitable modern replacements that feel and plays more or less similar, and that includes Ti10, MP99, MP100, arcsabers, or any other generic box/ovals. Carbonex and some of the armortecs did feel pretty unique, but carbonex does it at the cost of a smaller sweetspot, while the armortecs had serious durability issues aside from the 900's, so clearly they were not complete products.
     
  16. hieu nguyen

    hieu nguyen Regular Member

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    I agree to your points in some extend, but also has your game changes to today's games? It's just you haven't thought about how rackets have changed due to different of styles being played. Back in the days, it was all power. Now? It's all about speed and drives. The faster you play, the more difficult it is for your opponent to defend. I would argue that athlete in the past are stronger, but less skillful. Now, there are more access to badminton. An average player at the club now are more likely to get more training and access to badminton tournaments compared to in the past. Watching recorded badminton videos were the things in 10 years ago. I'm not saying this era is better, but I'm saying the games have changed. Rackets now also need to adapt to the games changed.
     
  17. ChocoChipWaffle

    ChocoChipWaffle Regular Member

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    I don't think level doubles was ever about all power, even back in those days. Speed, drives, service and return game were always top priority, purely due to the fact that those shots were played much more frequently than a lift that warrants an all out smash. Almost every point involves hitting the serve, return, 3rd shot, so having a speed racket for these makes much more sense than a racket for a smash I probably won't even hit this rally. A full powered jump smash even more rare, most times there's only enough time for just a clip or placement smash, which a fast racket like braveswords is great at.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, in level doubles, we live in a world of 4u's and 5u's and look back at the MP and AT as hammers, but if we think back to those days, those rackets WERE the lightest and speediest of their time, and that's what people used. Level doubles was always played with speed rackets of their time, except the few who clearly prefer to play with heavy rackets like Boe. That being said, I don't mind manufacturers trying making speedier rackets, but they need to make sure they're not making worse rackets. Nanoflares are the lightest yonexes to date, but both 700 and 800 already shows fragility issues, which means they're too light for their own good. Auraspeeds aren't any lighter than Braveswords, and in fact the bravesword 12 swings faster than any auraspeed from what i hear, and the feel has either gone downwards or sideways at best, so what exactly are we advancing with both series? And worst of all, if they actually did killed off the Bravesword 12 like they intended to during the Jetspeed days, what exactly are we killing these classics for? They haven't actually MADE anything that can replace them. Of course, I'm not talking about all classics, I'm just talking about the braveswords.

    This final point is straying off topic, so bear with me. I agree that the game is faster nowadays, but to your point about skill level of players of now and then.. I think players were actually more skillful back than compared to now, in men's doubles at least. People nowadays focus way less on placing the shuttle and try to purely outpace the opponent with mindless shots. Players back then, say the 90s-early 2000's were way more about varying the pace, where to place it, and calculating etc. Aside from setiawan/ahsan and maybe endo/watanabe, most of the top pairs don't do this as much nowadays. It's just going at 100% speed at all times, placement be damned, reaction time battle do or die type of thing.
     
    #17 ChocoChipWaffle, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  18. ccmak

    ccmak Regular Member

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    @ChocoChipWaffle In my hands the JSYYS felt like what you're asking for. But that's just me.

    Badminton technology has been stagnant for quite some time now. The only major breakthrough in equipment for me was the introduction of Isometric frames, then followed by the ability to withstand higher tensions. I wonder what else can a racket improve on.

    Also, Coming from carbonex rackets, I find that modern rackets lost that crisp feel that you'd get from an oval frame. Perhaps I haven't been able to get my hands on the right racket yet..so if anyone have any racket recommendations, please let me know. I am also starting to think equipment is probably generational thing. Are we trapped in the moment? Maybe we are reminiscing the good ol' days? Players I know that started with isometric frames have no idea what I'm spouting about on the oval frame feeling, nor do they get it once they try an old carbonex.
     
  19. ChocoChipWaffle

    ChocoChipWaffle Regular Member

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    thanks for the jsyys recommendation, i'll try to find it and give it a try

    As for your carbonex problem, I guess you can either try to find an oval frame from a non-major brand, or find an isometric with a small but focused sweetspot. Hypernano 900 apparently has this, and you can also try frames with smaller heads like VTZF2, TK9900
     
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