[VIDEO] What to focus on

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by Karlos, Dec 15, 2018.

  1. Pagz

    Pagz Regular Member

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    I believe you are still too tense in your arm and wrist during the swing. The wrist only comes into play at the last moment. You are also losing alot of power by not using your body rotation enough. The upperbody/shoulder rotation comes first, then the arm follows and at last comes the wrist. To get a feeling for it, you could only do the body and shoulder rotation while keeping the arm and wrist completely loose. If you do it right, the racket should do a circular movement behind you back (maybe you can practice it infront of a mirror?).
    Inthe video that BadBAdmintonPlayer has linked on page 1, at 21:55 YYS shows it perfectly. At 21:55 you can see his hip rotate, then his shoulder, the elbow comes foreward, at 22:04 his arm rotation starts and only at the last moment the wrist tenses up.
     
  2. Karlos

    Karlos Regular Member

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    Thanks for your input! You are absolutely right with the tense arm/wrist. I would like to be much more relaxed with my arm and wrist, but it's quite hard for me as I am not very comfortable with my overhead right now. Also to your point about body rotation - is the timing right, just not enough rotation? Or is it more of a timing issue? Could you elaborate on that a little bit more please @Pagz ?
     
  3. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    You still look stiff - I expect over time, you will relax better. Those of us who play a lot have spent many many hours and thousands of shuttles on overhead clears.

    it looks like you are not continuing the pronation after hitting the shuttle. Same issue that a lot of Intermediate players have. In order to continue the pronation and have the racquet face turned slightly outwards, your arm must relax, hold the racquet lightly and use your fingers to help with the pronation.

    Just look at the picture of the follow through after the smash (See link). Try to copy that position after hitting the shuttle . It’s very important that the racquet is directly in front of the right side of the body. Most people when first trying to do the pronation will move their arm out to the right.

    https://www.badmintoncentral.com/bc/2014/02/19/improving-the-quality-of-your-smash/

    You did show a shadow stroke in your video which I think is ok and you do the pronation there (but still a bit stiff). But you are not yet doing the same action when there’s a shuttle to hit.

    for the body rotation, I think it is OK for now. Just need lots of practice playing clears and trying to get each one deep.
     
    #43 Cheung, Jan 13, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  4. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    When you say "wrist" do you mean arm rotation? e.g. 'last thing' being forearm rotation?

    Notice that earlier in the thread, a poster pointed out that he was using his wrist and shouldn't be.. That referred perhaps to earlier him using wrist flexion rather than rotation. He is now using arm rotation.. as opposed to wrist flexion, and that's better.

    So your use of the term "wrist" doesn't seem like a good idea.

    See here.. the title is a bit misleading, but they make the point within the first 30 seconds, that it's not the wrist it's the forearm. (upper arm too prior to forearm.. but last part is forearm)..

    In his very first sentence in the video, he says the idea that it's the wrist is a big misconception



    One poster "Kento" made a very good post, but in his terminology, he even referred to use of wrist muscles.. that is extremely wrong.. (the muscles used in upper arm rotation and forearm rotation aren't "wrist muscles"). And that kind of thing is the reason why some people think they should train "the wrist" or worst "wrist muscles" in the gym. It helps to know basic anatomy. Like the difference between a wrist and a forearm.

    There is "snapping the wrist" which would really involve the wrist and some light use of wrist muscles but that's another matter and many don't do it. And there are some shots where one really might use the wrist rather than the forearm. But I think when you are saying wrist, you mean forearm.
     
    #44 ralphz, Jan 16, 2020 at 3:45 AM
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020 at 4:46 AM
  5. Pagz

    Pagz Regular Member

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    I don't fully agree with you on the term wrist. You are correct that I should have refered to the movement as "rotation of the wirst" to not confuse beginners who might bend their wrist (which you shouldn't do). But what you are actually doing is rotating your wrist/hand and not your forearms, although the muscles responsible for that movement are of course in the forearm. The term "wrist rotation" also helps distinguish the movement from the extension of the forearm, which is a seperate movement that comes before the wrist rotation.
    For those still confused about the movement of the wirst: Extend your arm and hand in front of you with your palm facing upwards. Now turn your palm 180° so it's facing to the ground. That's exactly the movement you're looking for.
     
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  6. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    To say Wrist rotation / rotating the wrist, is quite good not too bad.. but just saying wrist especially when somebody has been doing wrist flexion before, is not a good idea..

    Though even to say wrist rotation needs a note re that there's forearm rotation, because -you- then think/write that it's not forearm rotation!!

    Putting aside where the muscles are.. (we agree they're not in the wrist)..

    Anatomically it seems to me that the wrist can be rotated with the forearm or upper arm or both.

    In badminton you definitely rotate the wrist with forearm rotation.. And you definitely use upper arm rotation which I think would be rotating the wrist.. and at the end of the movement it'd only be forearm rotation rotating the wrist..

    I don't know why you are saying you are not rotating the forearm.. If you think about it you'd see that you are. Maybe you just miswrote? It's really well known (from anybody that does some research or thinks about it), that the wrist is rotated by forearm rotation!! In badminton people often don't know even primary school anatomy, and that video is good at clearing up the misconception and explaining that it's forearm pronatio,n.

    As for where muscles are located.. the biceps move when the forearm rotates, so there's bicep activity there. But where muscles are located and what muscles are used would be another subject.. i'm no expert.. and almost no badminton players are when it comes to that subject!
     
    #46 ralphz, Jan 16, 2020 at 6:05 AM
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020 at 6:20 AM
  7. Pagz

    Pagz Regular Member

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    I didn't say that the forarm doesn't rotate (it obviously does as it is attached to the wrist). What I said was that you should aim to rotate your wrist or hand and not your forearm because that movement in badminton feels like a wrist rotation and not like a forarm rotation. Also if you fixate your forearm, you can still move your wrist, but it doesn't work the other way around. That's what makes me think that the muscles actually rotate the wrist and not the forearm (and like i said, that's also what it feels like). But I am not an expert on anatomy, so i might be wrong.
    However, I think we are too hung up on terminology in this discussion. You could tell a beginner every scientific aspect of the shot movement and he still wouldn't be able to do it. IMO it's much better to talk about the basic principles of the movement (body stability, kinetic chain, round motion of the racket, relaxed grip and arm...) than to go too much into details. It's a bit like describing a color to a blind person.

    Sorry i took so long to answer. i wanted to take a video at first because that's kinda hard to explain with words. However I found a great Youtube Video explaining that very concept:

    Hope that helps!
     
    #47 Pagz, Jan 16, 2020 at 12:11 PM
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020 at 12:17 PM
  8. speCulatius

    speCulatius Regular Member

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    When you walk, your head will move, but you wouldn't tell somebody that you'll move your head when you're about to take a walk.
     
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  9. Pagz

    Pagz Regular Member

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    That's exactly what I mean. Of course the forarm rotates during the movement, but it makes no sense to tell someone to rotate their forearm when it actually feels like a movement of the wrist.
     
  10. speCulatius

    speCulatius Regular Member

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    You really don't want to get it, do you? The wrist doesn't rotate. Just fix (hold) your forearm just below your wrist and try to rotate it (the wrist). It doesn't work. It's the forearm. If you're not happy with the definitions, feel free to use your own terms, just be aware that it will cause a lot of confusion and misunderstanding.
     
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  11. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    paz when you say "it[forearm] obviously does[rotate] as it is attached to the wrist" and "it makes no sense to tell someone to rotate their forearm", and "what you are actually doing is rotating your wrist/hand and not your forearms" it shows you are not just using confused terminology, you are confused philosophically or in understanding (besides anatomically e.g. anatomically the terms are forearm pronation and forearm supination, for a reason). This might not help you see this, and you're probably better off with speculatius's example to help you see it, but imagine if attached to the wrist was an A, and attached to the A was a B, and attached to the B was a C. So the wrist is in the middle. Or imagine if there was an X then a Y then a Z, in between your forearm and your wrist, so the wrist is more clearly in the middle, then it should be clear the movement starts with the forearm and is of the forearm. Not with the X, not with the wrist, and not with the Z. And the same principle applies when there's no X,Y,Z,A,B,C.. SpeCulatius's example is simpler though and makes an important point.that might help you understand.

    I understand wanting to avoid technical terms in many cases but some of the things said of the movement is wrong, and isn't exactly more clear.

    Also on a forum especially, words are used a lot and are really important. Arguably in person too, at least for certain types of people, but certainly on a forum where communication is done a lot, with words.
     
    #51 ralphz, Jan 16, 2020 at 5:56 PM
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020 at 6:26 PM
  12. Karlos

    Karlos Regular Member

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    Yeah I saw that video already, it is really informative. However I was asking if by

    you mean I am not rotating enough "into the shuttle", or the timing is wrong (or both, or none?). Like technically, I know what I should do, the image in my head is perfectly clear :rolleyes: but in practise thats a different thing.



    I also noticed that I suck at pronation, even if I really, REALLY focus on it. In my latest training video I noticed (again) that my arm/racket angle is almost always 180° at every shot and that might be the culprit (hard to pronate with that). So to my next training, I will focus on to having more of an angle with my racket and see if that helps. When I was filming my practice swings, they were really good - I was happy with them. Again with the shuttle it's a different thing.

    Also I have a question related with my last paragraph - if I want to have less of an angle between racket/arm (less than 180°), doesn't that mean that my contact point would be lower now? Because technically I have to lower my palm/hand a little bit to get that angle. I am not saying if its good or bad, just trying to understand the concept :)
     
  13. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Yeah it's not all about reaching high. For example if you hit it out in front of you to hit it down with power, then you are stretching your arm out quite a bit (reaching out), but you are not reaching as vertically high as possible. And if you reached as vertically high as possible then you couldn't hit it down at all cos you need your racket face to point at an angle on contact, to send the shuttle not just forward but downward too. And it will point at an angle quite naturally when hitting it more in front of you. When you have that angle between racket and arm them it suits hitting it not just in front of you but somewhat out to the side.
     
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  14. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    1) have a slight bend at your elbow to make the angle less than 180degrees

    2) when you hit the shuttle, reach up more with your right shoulder (left shoulder will tilt downwards)

    3) hold the racquet nearer the end of the handle.

    4) remember to get the pronation of the racquet head as you hit the shuttle and continue with pronation after hitting it.
     
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  15. Pagz

    Pagz Regular Member

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    I think your timing is a little bit off (not much though). The movement of the shoulder should come just a few ms before the arm movement. You can try lifting up your arm with you elbow bend in a 90° angle (without a racket). Now you "open up" your upper body and do the upper body and shoulder movement while keeping your arm completely relaxed. If your arm is relaxed, it should first do a backwards motion and then a forward motion, guided by your shoulder. You can do this a few times to get a feeling for how the (relaxed) arm reacts to the shoulder movement and then you can pick up a racket and include the arm movement too. The arm movement should start at the point of maximum forward acceleration of the arm, and that's the timing you are looking for. Hopefully that explanation makes sense. It's difficult to explain without demonstration.

    Edit: One more clarification: If you watch your video from the 8th of January in slow motion, you will notice that your elbow is in front of your shoulder during the whole movement. Try leading your stroke with your shoulder so that your elbow only surpasses your shoulder in the middle of your stroke.
     
    #55 Pagz, Jan 17, 2020 at 8:06 AM
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020 at 8:16 AM
  16. Karlos

    Karlos Regular Member

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    Well, I have been actually focusing on leading with my elbow, as it is 1. recommended to do so and 2. it helps me getting my swing more relaxed.

    My main goal is to have more relaxed swing and getting rid of the damn wrist (use of proper pronatrion). One excercise that really helps me is that I try to stop my swing right after hitting the shuttle (smthing like stick smash) - I am not sure why, but when I do this excercise my technique is much better.
     
    #56 Karlos, Jan 19, 2020 at 11:30 PM
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020 at 2:10 AM
  17. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    You refer to the stick smash.. it's obviously going to get you to focus more on the pronation part which is what you said is your goal to focus on. That's why.
     

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