whose shot is it if I return serve flat and fast and they hit it high and straight?

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by ralphz, Oct 8, 2019.

  1. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    whose shot is it if I return serve flat and fast and they hit it high and straight?

    i.e.

    They serve to me(shot 1). I return serve flat and fast and straight, maybe slightly more towards the tramlines than straight(shot 2). (It's not an ideal shot from me, it's deeper than i'd like and it's not as wide as i'd like, and they don't struggle to get it). They do a shot that is I guess an attacking lift.. it's fast, they aren't struggling to do the lift. In this case they hit it a bit like they are hitting a drive, but their racket face is more open and the shuttle is directed over me(shot 3).

    Whose is shot 4. Is that mine, or my partners?
     
  2. llrr

    llrr Regular Member

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    It depends, but a fast straight push where it's easy for the opponent to play back over your head is not a good shot to play in the first place. If your partner gets it, it's a difficult backhand shot (assuming both players use same hands); if you get it it's a difficult "moving backwards" shot. Not ideal.
     
  3. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    well of course it's not a good shot to play, I said "(It's not an ideal shot from me, it's deeper than i'd like and it's not as wide as i'd like, and they don't struggle to get it)."

    you said "If your partner gets it, it's a difficult backhand shot (assuming both players use same hands);" <-- It may be a difficult shot for my partner, but it could be a round the head shot for them. Not to say it's not difficult.

    You say that whose it is depends. Depends on what?
     
  4. llrr

    llrr Regular Member

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    Well, for example like you said, your partner could hit a round the head shot, but that depends on them knowing that you will push down the line and stay at the net, so that they will be ready to cover the return shot over your head. If they react even a fraction of a second later they will be forced to hit a backhand. Then again, it also depends on if your partner is comfortable playing backhand overhead shots or not. For example, I'm ok with playing a backhand fast drop/half smash for anything short and round the head for anything higher, but not everybody will want to do that. It also depends on if you stay at the net or not. Maybe you like to push straight then immediately move backwards in anticipation for the straight reply, in which case the next shot would be yours.
     
  5. SSSSNT

    SSSSNT Regular Member

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    When you hit a service reply 'flat and fast', I assume this is an attacking shot done near or at the net. Also, I imagine you'd be put at a very disadvantageous position if you also have to cover the back court after this shot since it's a fast shot and you are essentially now at the net. Thus, you would ideally assume the front-back formation where you cover the front-mid court and your partner covers the mid-back court. If the lift is high enough that you can't intercept, then I'd say it's definitely your partner's shot.
     
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  6. speCulatius

    speCulatius Regular Member

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    You are blue number one, returning the serve to the area where the shuttle is, red number two will move in to get it.
    PSX_20191009_173101.jpg
    This leaves your opponent the option of the a flat lift along the sideline. This is very hard for your partner to cover (while he still has to cover all cross lifts). Impossible for your partner to cover would be a drive along the line, so you have to cover that anyway. This means you have to close that side which also gives you a great position to cover all flat lifts.

    This could change if you had a preference to cover the net, but for most doubles, I'd teach this as a default, giving them the option to change that again when the opponent likes to play the cross drop.

    Another remark:
    You are asking a lot of questions about positioning in doubles. PLEASE attach an image explaining the situation to make it easier for everybody.

    Edit: Red and blue were the wrong way around. nobody complained?
     
    #6 speCulatius, Oct 9, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  7. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    We have got to the stage when people ask for advice hopefully have attached pictures or video clips

    It would help considerably - not just in this thread either but other threads. Just saves a layer of potential misinterpretation.
     
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  8. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

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    Yeah and now that everyone has smart phones its fairly easy to record yourself.... :cool:
     
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  9. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    SSSSNT understood perfectly, I clicked like on his post, and I understood everything he said and don't disagree with anything he said.
     
  10. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    SSSS understood, in the post before yours. And even though his post doesn't have an image, I understood it perfectly, agree completely and can see exactly what he is talking about.

    I'd have to study your post more to try to understand your post with the image and after that I might have a question or two to help me understand it. Maybe partly 'cos i'm stupid visually. I will try to analyse your post, but right now my reply to you is just making the point re the image and the clarity. That for me the clearest reply was the one before you, and it had no image, and the understanding(from him of my post), was spot on(and my understanding of his post was totally clear and easy).

    Your post looks really good, I just have to spend some time studying it, which i'm interested in doing. Your post looks thoughtfully written, and I will give it time, I just need to give it more time to look at. Then I might have a question or two to still try to understand it

    One thing i'm doing now is resizing your image so I fit it on the screen in a window while still seeing all of what you wrote, along with my question.. otherwise i'm scrolling trying to cross reference three different things,(my post, your words, and your image) your image is enormous, also your image has very little labeling so I have to do a lot of cross referencing to follow it. But i'm doing it ;-) I just have to organise things on screen so I can do the cross referencing without scrolling up and down losing sight of the image.

    I do include an image in my question or posts sometimes, where I feel I can't communicate my point effectively/clearly in just words.

    Thanks
     
    #10 ralphz, Oct 9, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  11. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    I guess not, maybe partly because the image is large and it's actually not always so easy to follow a post with an image.. (an image isn't like a magic thing that always makes things clear.. and labelling applies too.. how well or not is an image labelled).

    And following on from my last post where I said i'd need to study yours.

    And having attempted to study your post, I was going to ask you to explain how this was possible.

    [​IMG]


    So if we are to be on the same page(in understanding, even putting aside any scrolling), do you suggest I change your image's red to blue, or to change your words from red to blue?

    Or perhaps you can edit your post and fix it?

    Whichever you think is easiest?

    Thanks
     
  12. speCulatius

    speCulatius Regular Member

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    I'm not saying that it's impossible to do it without a picture. To stay fair, the picture is only trying to make sure that I understood the situation. I also included some arrows that show my reply and can stand without words.

    Then I wrote my reply that also works without a picture.

    You are asking for advice and even the definition of a 'drop' for example can vary, so giving the people you are asking for advice the chance to use both approaches would be a nice move from you. It might also help to reduce misunderstandings.

    You say, you agree with
    I don't. This opens up the sidelines for a drive completely. Neither you, nor your partner would have a chance getting that.

    I already did. You just quoted my post from two different times.
     
  13. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    so if I include what you wrote but with some more referencing for clarity, so paraphrasing you

    And when you say i'm blue number 1 I suppose you mean the circle with blue-1.
    .
    And i'll include a pic.of a size that enables one to read that along with the image.

    [​IMG]

    The trajectory of the shuttle from blue-1 circle, to where you show it, is very diagonal, not straight.

    Your scenario a bit strange to me.

    I kind of understand your scenario but only kind of. I have never encountered it because I can't see how it could work. When I said flat fast and straight, and I mentioned a little towards the tramlines, I meant like maybe 10 degrees.. not as wide as your illustration.. as that's not hitting it straight iMO.. But going with your scenario.. I don't understand it.

    For example, if blue-1 hits it there(that wide), then by the time red-2 gets it, it is going to be quite low. (if it isn't quite low when over there then it's going to go out wide)

    (i've included some elaboration in curly braces for clarity)
    You say "Impossible for your partner{blue-2} to cover would be a drive along the line"

    First of all I was never suggesting that my partner should cover a drive down the line!(that'd be for blue-1 to cover, if that were even possible to happen). And secondly, by the time the shuttle is there it'd be low and impossible to drive it down the line..it'd have to be a lift from red-2, or at least the shuttle on an upwards gradient, if the shuttle is over there. 'cos the shuttle over there would be below the net tape.

    If the shuttle was over there and it was possible for red-2 to drive it down the line then it's going out, red-2 may as well leave it and let it go out!

    I've probably misunderstood you, but that's my attempt at understanding your words and image.
     
    #13 ralphz, Oct 9, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  14. speCulatius

    speCulatius Regular Member

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    Well, that really depends on where the serve is going, which you didn't specify at all. A picture would have helped.
    PSX_20191009_233752.jpg
     
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  15. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    It wasn't a wide serve, you didn't get wrong where the shuttle is hit from / where the serve is going,

    I hit it from where your blue-1 circle is.

    My question with your diagram and description (as I said in reponse to it), is that if the shuttle is possible to be driven straight flat down the sidelines by red-2 (from the position where the shuttle is returned to in your diagram) then it can just be left to go out the court! So why would anybody drive it flat low down the sidelines if they could leave it to go out. That is what I don't understand about what you describe and what your diagram seems to show... So your diagram(cross referenced with your description), is not clear to me at all. I am interested in the scenario you describe, I just don't understand it, for the reason I mentioned.
     
    #15 ralphz, Oct 9, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  16. Hbmao

    Hbmao Regular Member

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    I think this is a quite realistic scenario. And Both options are actually in play. I personally prefer my partner to cover the baseline because it’s always doable to run to the forehand deep corner and hit a quality shot. And it would be more natural for me to cover the net if I charge to the net to make this return, which is often.

    But I have also seen articles suggesting that the returner (blue 1) to cover the flat straight return. This in my mind would be a more aggressive approach as you put more bet on your return (2nd shot) quality and gamble that the 3rd shot won’t be too good to intercept.

    A return to the opposite corner near the net is in my mind the best counter from red and is usually what I would do if I were the red.

    A return to the opposite corner to the baseline is the most difficult shot for red. You have to take the risk that this won’t happen.

    Obviously everything is in relative and depends on the shot quality. But again I do find this a quite common scenario and have had discussions with my partner or been told by my partner on what the preferred approach should be after the 2nd shot.
     
  17. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    You refer to the scenario described by speculatius in his picture. How is the shuttle in speculatisus's picture, that is as high as the net tape if not a bit higher, and near the tramlines, and moving at that diagonal trajectory(particularly where B1 is), going to stay in the court if nobody hits it? If his diagram was a little bit different and B1 stepped more to the right , the shuttle more in front of him, but still bit a bit diagonally, Then it seems plausible for me that the shuttle could stay in the court in his diagram.
     
    #17 ralphz, Oct 9, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  18. Hbmao

    Hbmao Regular Member

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    I don’t know for sure but I was thinking a soft/medium push to the “waist” area (in between the red players) in this case it would be quite low when the red gets to it (purposely so). But a fast, non-lift return by red is still possible.
     
  19. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    So you mean a shot on an upward gradient third shot(that doesn't go over the guy that returned it), but that shot is not a flat shot, right? and you seem to suggest his diagram means the return serve is a soft push.. though his diagram was meant to describe what I asked about, which in my subject said "fast flat". So I guess there's quite a bit of ambiguity in his diagram..But his diagram can't refer to what I described if his were to mean soft either. And anyhow the question was about the shot over the returner. (an attacking lift). SSSS understood fine.

    By the way, do you agree with what SSSS said? (If I return a fast flat shot not that diagonal)
     
    #19 ralphz, Oct 9, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  20. Hbmao

    Hbmao Regular Member

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    If I’m blue 1 and I play a fast flat return toward the baseline I would obviously have 3 options:

    1. To red’s forehand side. This is the worst as it will be an easy shot for the red. Likely the 3rd shot will be high quality and put blue under pressure. In this case I would want my partner to cover my back as the 3rd shot will likely be too fast for me to cover if it is aimed at baseline.

    2. To red’s body. This is to bet on red does not anticipate the shot and hence the 3rd shot will be weak. But most likely the 3rd shot will be short (hard to hit it deep if not prepared). In this case I (blue 2) will want to cover the front to tap back the net shot (to either corner). My partner covers my back as backup.

    3. to red’s backhand. This is to bet on red’s backhand is weaker. Here both options are at play: I can still try to cover the front with emphasis on the near side as that’s the most likely 3rd shot. Or I can take a step back to cover both the net shot and a relatively weak drive/lift return.

    make sense?
     

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