Women can't jump???

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by Sasho, May 1, 2009.

  1. jbchiong

    jbchiong Regular Member

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    I have two women who really do jump smashes. Yip Pui Yin and Zhu Jingjing.

    Who says women can't jump?
     
  2. William86_98

    William86_98 Regular Member

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    Actually..the reason why women do not use the jump match to the same extent as the men IS physiological, but not in the way where:
    "Physically, women are on average slightly weaker, slightly slower, and possess slightly lower stamina. Women are on equal footing in reaction time and technique."
    While this MIGHT be true, it still doesn't explain why the top females, who are definitely fitter than the "average" man who DOES jump smash, do jump as much.

    Rather, the reason is that women have a lower centre of gravity than men, meaning that they have a larger portion of their weight distributed in their legs and below, as compared to men. This means that they must perform more work physiologically in order to jump the same height as a comparable man. Thus, women are not as efficient jumpers as men, so it would not be as beneficial for them to use the jump smash in a game. Even if you watch volleyball, a sport that is all about vertical jump, you'll notice that the women's net height is a lot closer to their highest reach than the men's net to a man's reach..
     
  3. narnia

    narnia Regular Member

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    Yip Pu Yin is a usual jump smasher as you might know.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRWNXD-5tyQ

    (e.g., watch around 2:17 for the busy audience.)

    As watching it, you will recognize the answer to the topic of this thread.

    :)
     
    #23 narnia, Jun 7, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2009
  4. bananakid

    bananakid Regular Member

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    I don't know how it feels like, but if anyone wonder why women don't jump smash a lot... then try doing jump smashes while wearing a bra and put a couple of oranges in there, too:p I am sure you will then find out what the power of gravity really is like.
     
  5. narnia

    narnia Regular Member

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    Therefore, we can only see some gifted women go for the jump-smashing:

    Yip Pu Yin, Yu Yang, Du Jing, etc.

    :)
     
  6. wombads

    wombads Regular Member

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    Oranges in bras? Lack of stamina? Lack of fitness and agility because they are women? This is such a sexist thread and as a female player, I am offended by the crude jokes and lack of sensitivity as well as uninformed comments posted.
     
  7. Mathieu

    Mathieu Regular Member

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    I do not think that people are trying to be sexist here. If you look at almost all world record in terms of Speed (sprints), Stamina (marathons, swimming etc), you will realise that Men just tend to be better than Women in those fields... nothing sexist there.

    But then you can argue that professionnal female badminton players (which tend not to perform the jump smashes) are probably better than most recreationnal male badminton players (which tend to perform the jumpsmash) in all of those fields but they still do not (or rarely) perform this shot. Which leads me to think that its because of how they are physiologically built.

    I did the test with one of my female friends, which has about the same fitness level as me. We both jumped as high as we could and I could definitively jump alot higher than her, which is why I think this is caused by a physiological difference.... no sexisim intended here...
     
  8. bananakid

    bananakid Regular Member

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    What's wrong with my idea that yes... having additional weight in different areas of the body will be affected by gravity and therefore women "choose" not to jump so often? How is that not sensitive or sexist?:confused:

    So if women want to be treated equally in badminton, then why don't we take out the women divisions in badminton, and just have men vs women altogether then? say what? that's not fair to the women??? Then shut up.:mad::rolleyes:

    There will never be REAL EQUALITY between the two gender, until the day we have women piano movers, and men baby feeders.:rolleyes:

    You don't like oranges? How about grapefruits then? or kiwis?:confused:
     
    #28 bananakid, Jun 9, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2009
  9. chewablemorphin

    chewablemorphin Regular Member

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    It's not really about equality, woman are designed to give birth, men aren't. It's easily twice as hard for a woman to become a great athlete then it is for a guy. They have many more limitations that men don't have to cope with, it's not fair to say a men are better then woman.
     
  10. bradmyster

    bradmyster Regular Member

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    lol............ITS THE INTERNET> PRETTY SERIOUS BUSINESS EH?

    lol no ones being sexist. Just highlighting the points as to why women dont jump smash. Stop crying.
     
  11. wombads

    wombads Regular Member

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    Thank you, Mr Sensitivity (yes, I am being ironic). I rest my case.
     
  12. wombads

    wombads Regular Member

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    I'm so glad to see my points taken seriously just because I'm a woman. Not. Good grief, no wonder there aren't more women in this forum if this is the sort of attitude that is carried.

    Despite best intentions, if words written or said are found to be offensive, the polite thing to do is recant or apologise or at least attempt to understand the reaction. In this case, I responded to some of the comments posted in this thread for the very reason they were offensive to me as a member and as a female badminton player. Getting a hostile response, or being patronised and condescended to really does not alleviate the initial offense and instead, compounds it. (By the way, this is not aimed only at bradmyster)

    Now, the topic of this thread was about the lack of jump smash play used by female players, and I've given my thoughts about why this is so. How or why this topic degenerated so quickly into the familiar, and totally untrue, refrain of 'women are physically inferior' does not help further the understanding of how women players are developed in the sport, nor does it help male players understand their XD partners. In my view, any limitation on developing players, for whatever reason, is a disservice to the sport in the long term.
     
  13. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    I'm somewhat sympathetic towards your complaint, because some of the comments in this thread are rather unhelpful.

    Nevertheless, your wanting something to be true does not make it so. In any sport where strength and speed are important, men will outperform women. There are exceptional disciplines where women have outperformed men physically, such as the free-diver Tanya Streeter, who (briefly) held the world depth record for both sexes. Yet this is a discipline that selects less for strength and speed, and more for breath-holding efficiency and metabolic control: Tanya can hold her breath for six minutes; a normal person, were he able to overcome the involuntary breathing reflex, would be brain-dead after about four minutes.

    When making comparisons, of course, we must take into account the level of the players. I'm sure that Gail Emms has a much stronger smash than I do, but she's a world-class player and I'm not. She may even be able to bench-press more than I can, but she's a world-class athlete and I'm not.

    It's especially clear-cut at the top of the game, where the athletes come close to fulfilling their full physical potential. The men hit much harder and move much faster. You can choose not to believe that if you wish, but you'd be wrong.

    With that in mind, the question remains: why is it that the world-class women players perform "full on" jump smashes much less often than the men?

    But maybe we should take a step back and ask the more basic question, "Why do the women play so many clears?" If you watch a world-class game of women's doubles, you'll see a lot more clears than in men's doubles.

    Of course, these women also have powerful smashes -- but not powerful enough to punch through their opponents' defences at will. Defensive ability has relatively little to do with physical strength, so there's not much difference between men and women here (actually, I'm not sure there's any difference). Give these women anything less than a devastating smash to deal with, and they'll make you look silly in a heartbeat.

    For women's doubles, therefore, the smash is reserved for when they have set up the rally and are ready to do some damage. This requires clears and drops to manoeuvre their opponents who -- don't forget -- are less fleet of foot than the men. In men's doubles, however, the smash is so brutally powerful that it becomes the shot of choice; the top men can easily play an effective smash from right at the back; they also have the physical strength to keep playing jump smashes, one after the other.

    The women can play jump smashes, but in comparison to the men they can't hit as hard, they can't jump as high, they can't recover for the next shot as quickly, and they can't keep doing it for as long. All of these differences combine to make a jump smash a bigger physical investment for a smaller tactical payoff. Therefore you don't see as many jump smashes from women.

    Any of these women could beat me silly while playing with a frying pan and her dominant hand tied behind her back. They are awesome athletes, but that doesn't change the fact that the men are substantially better.
     
    #33 Gollum, Jun 10, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2009
  14. kinoko

    kinoko Regular Member

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    i do agree with gollum on the comments. Different choice of wording perhaps.

    anyway, to begin with, to my understanding, woman need to train much harder than men to be able to perform same level of physical activity due to muscle arrangement in most cases. Badminton in this case, requires speed and power, and perhaps double dose for jump smash as for the topic. anyway u get the idea.

    on the other hand, perhaps woman tend to do better at accuracy? i know that training a both newbie male and female basketball player, the female tend to be able to shot more points than male.
     
  15. eaglehelang

    eaglehelang Regular Member

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    Errr, getting hostile response,etc is quite normal, whatever gender. If we (females) react, then we're branded as emotional xxxx, no-win situation. ;):D If they react same way never mind, we react cannot, hehe :p .
    So dont bother lah about the irritating ones, join us in the other threads - currently the Spore SS is on.

    In real life, I hear even worse comments about women players, whenever it's WS or WD, TV gets turned to another channel or viewers walk off with comments along the lines of "women cant play lah, why you want to watch ?".
     
  16. wombads

    wombads Regular Member

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    With reference to Gollum (#33) and Kinoko's (#34) posts above, I certainly don't agree women or men 'outperform' each other when we don't have baseline studies of what performances we are referring. To say so and to continue harping on gender difference does not answer the original question effectively.
    I bring your attention to a previous thread at http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22530 which I found to be more enlightening and less generalist.
    My impression is that the overall training program for women players (different for WD and WS again, and differnet again with new sports research) is geared towards a differnet style of play that includes tactical as well as physical strategies. I don't deny that physiology is an important factor (this is true of any sport because sport, by definition, involves the physical) but whether, in this instance, the use of a particular stroke-albeit one that seems to involve an inordinate amount of explosive energy-is tailored towards body type, muscle type or game play, and when is it beneficial to utilise it.
    Since I am neither a phys ed trainer nor strategy coach, I don't have the answer but I would be interested in some good research. I've used the jump smash in competition to great effect, much to my own surprise, so I don't know why it is not more widely used, unless perhaps it is by itself a difficult stroke to learn.
    For those interested, a simple internet search will explain the difference between "explosive strength" and "power", and the how speed and muscle affect efficacy. Interestingly, hip and thigh strength is universally seen as the basis for strong vertical jumps. Considering that women have considerable strength in that area, jumps should be naturally easier to perform, and yet we aren't trained nor encouraged to do so in Badminton, compared with sports such as Volleyball, Basketball or even Handball.
    Therefore, at this stage, I can only surmise that women don't jump smash more often because we are not trained to do so. Why that is, I do not know. Perhaps a women's coach could provide some input?
     
  17. wombads

    wombads Regular Member

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    Eagle, I'm sorry you have to endure such terrible attitudes in your favoured sport. I hope, in time, you'll have the opportunity to associate with better players. Enjoy the SSS. Next year, I'll be in Europe for a comp. Perhaps we'll be able to catch a few SS there too.
     
  18. William86_98

    William86_98 Regular Member

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    It's disheartening to see that most of the comments in this thread have turned into sexist comments (intended or not). Maybe some see it as a joke (but i dont' think the women will see it that way). But I would like to take a more scientific approach to answer the question, especially since it's somewhat within my field of study.

    Women have more weight distributed in these areas, but the resulting lower centre of gravity (CG) actually makes it much more difficult for them to elevate vertically in a jump.

    Consider:

    1) Source: wikipedia
    Vertical Jump is the ability to raise one's center of gravity higher in the vertical plane solely with the use of one's own muscles. It is a measure of how high an individual or athlete can elevate off the ground from a standstill.

    2) Source: my biomechanics textbook
    "Research indicates that better...higher jumpers employ both body lean and body flexion just before takeoff to lower the CG and prolong support foot contact time, thus resulting in increased takeoff impulse....The strategy of lowering the CG prior to takeoff enables the athlete to lengthen the vertical path over which the body is accelerated during takeoff, thus facilitating a high vertical velocity at takeoff."

    "The speed and projection angle of an athlete's total body centre of mass largely determine performance outcome in high jump"

    Therefore, two ways of improving vertical jump are 1) lowering the CG, and 2) increasing power (strength/time) in muscles that propel the CG, mainly leg muscles.

    Both men and women are able to lower the CG, but there is a key point here. Since women already have a lower CG, they are not able to lower their CG as much, relative to a man. A man bending down will have lowered his CG more than a woman bending down. Thus, there is greater rebounding effect in men.

    In terms of improving power, I think men and women (especially elite trained), are more equal in that aspect.

    Thus, the reasoning for women not being able to achieve relatively equal vertical jumps as men is biomechanic due to difference in CG.

    Given that this is true, we can apply to badminton. The jump smash in badminton gains its advantage in that the shuttle can be hit as a steeper angle, making it harder for the opponent to reach. Men can reach a higher absolute jump height, meaning they can create more angle with their shot, to the point where the shuttle becomes almost unreachable by their opponents. However, unlike sports like volleyball, the badminton net is NOT lowered for a women's game, meaning that women are not able to reach this same angle on their shots as the men. Since the defense ability of women and men are relatively the same (maybe women even better due to better flexibility and stability near the ground), a jump smash from a woman is rendered harmless because they are not able to smash at an angle that makes defense overly difficult. Thus, the jump smash for women, while as equally if not more physically demanding as the jump smash for men, is not as efficient at winning points as it is for the men.

    If you watch women jump smash in badminton, you'll still find that many of the jump smashes are actually not used for angle (since can't be that steep due to reasons listed above). Instead, the jump smashes are used for more speed on the shuttle and to move opponents out of position. However, probably a shot made on the ground would be just as effective (recovery time faster also). Also, this shot CANNOT be used the same as how the men use it for the steep angle point-ender, so I think this is probably why the jump smash is not as prevalent in the women's game.
     
  19. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    I hear the sound of an axe grinding. :D

    If you insist on rigorous scientific studies as the only grounds for a justified opinion, then it rather restricts the number of subjects of which we can form justified opinions. ;)

    I'm all in favour of scientific studies, but when they don't exist, we just have to muddle through.


    You have to distinguish between what works for you, and what works at the elite level. Your jump smash, while devastating against your opponents, would be unlikely to bother the top players.

    I don't claim to have an especially powerful smash, but it was nevertheless humbling to be paired against Lee Young Sook (former world # 2 in singles) in an all-out attack training exercise: I smashed, she blocked, I played a net shot, she lifted, and I smashed again. It didn't matter how hard I hit it, she always got them back.

    And that's not all. Her defence was so frighteningly good that she was able to stand right at the front, which normally would give a defender no time to react. She could have defended against my smashes while reading a book (I'm not even sure that's a hyperbole). Yet when I play against "casual" club players, they are in awe of my smash; it's all relative.

    For any given group of players, there is a balance between attack and defence, which dictates the style of the game. You can think of it as a ratio, R(a,d). If a and d are equal, then R(a,d) has the value 1:1, and the game is evenly balanced between attacking and defensive play.

    You may be a strong attacking player, so let's assign you a = 10. Your opponents have only moderately good defence, so let's give them d = 5. The ratio is 2:1, heavily in favour of your all-out attacking play.

    Now let's suppose you turn professional, and then become a world-class player. Your attack will be greatly improved -- let's say a = 30. But your opponents' defence will have improved even more: d = 25.

    The new ratio is 6:5, which still favours the attacker, but gives the defenders much better chances than they had back when you were playing at a lower level.

    With men, the story is different. Let's suppose a man from your club has a weaker attack than you do, so he starts with a = 5. That gives a 1:1 ratio, so he has to play a balanced game and not go for all-out attack (unlike you, who are strong enough to blast through defences).

    Then, as you did, he turns professional and becomes world-class. But his development will be different from yours. While his opponents' defence is the same, d = 25, his attack is much higher: d = 50. So he gets a 2:1 ratio, which heavily favours all-out attacking tactics.

    This is the explanation I'm offering. It's not that women "can't" play jump smashes, it's just that this choice of shot is less appropriate at the world-class level, because their smashes don't do enough damage against their opponents' defence. The style of the game is dictated by this ratio of attacking vs. defensive capabilities.

    You offer an alternative explanation. You seem to be suggesting that it's all down to what women are taught, and that if only they were taught better, we would see the world-class women jump-smashing just as much as the men. This portrays top-level women's badminton coaching as an institutionally patronising, male-chauvinist activity, which operates on the untested assumption that "women are too feeble to play a good jump smash."

    (Of course, that's just my understanding of what you're saying. It's part of the nature of forums that misunderstanding each other is perilously easy!)

    Your explanation could possibly be correct; there's nothing illogical about it. My reason for disbelieving it is simply that I think badminton training is so developed now, and the competition so extraordinarily fierce at the top, that such an obvious experiment would already have been tried, in order to gain even a slight competitive edge. However, it could just be that all the top badminton nations are dreadfully conservative in their training of women. ;)

    Bear in mind that, in nations such as China at least, the players are trained from a very early age, with the single-minded goal of producing the best possible performer (at peak). Their training is physically demanding in the extreme; if a few players break down physically, there's always more where they came from! It's not as though there's much chance here for "cultural" under-training of women to occur.

    On the other hand, we have seen huge developments in the women's training over the last decade or so; this is particularly evident in mixed, where the top pairs adopt positional strategies closer to level doubles than "traditional" mixed. Perhaps you're right after all, and we'll see similar developments leading to the women's game becoming more like the men's. I'd welcome that.
     
    #39 Gollum, Jun 11, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2009
  20. stumblingfeet

    stumblingfeet Regular Member

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    In women's volleyball, the net is lower to account for the lower vertical jumps. If they were to play on the higher men's nets, I'm sure you'll see a much more defensively oriented match.

    Now, there are some differences in lower body strength and power between men and women. Just look at powerlifting or olympic lifting records to confirm that. However, an even bigger difference exists for upper body strength. Once you get up into the air for the jump smash, you need an explosive upper body to hit a powerful shot. In my experience, you see a much bigger difference in strength here.
     

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