Women's Singles Needs To Change

pcll99

pcll99

Regular Member
1. I cannot remember how many career-ending moments I have witnessed in Women's Singles in the last 16 years in major tournaments: Wang Lin, Wang Xin, LXR, Marin, etc. They were the very best.

2. This cannot continue.

3. Players' health and safety must take precedence over everything else.

4. I propose Women's Singles scores end at 15 instead of 21.

What do you think?
 
If you'd like to fix a problem, it helps to analyse its causes. This helps you to find a solution that addresses the causes, not just feel well.
Just proposing some quick fix will do more harm than good.

Observation: Some career-ending injuries with women singles players

Questions we need to answer:
  1. Do we have enough of a sample size to do an analysis?
  2. Are injuries happening more within a certain group? (in your assumption: women. How about amateurs, pro's, singles/doubles, age?)
  3. What type of injuries are occurring, specifically?
  4. Are these types of injuries more common in other studies / sports?
  5. What incidents/movements caused these injuries?
  6. What does physiotherapy say about injury-prevention for these types of injuries?
  7. What effect do any preventions have on the game?
Perhaps the BWF can then work on a solution.

Otherwise we can only speculate, and then I can add quite a few more:
  • Women are more prone to knee injuries than men, maybe the court should be smaller so it's not so hard on the knees!
  • The turning in a quick game causes more injuries, the rackets should be much heavier so we have more time to respond and have less injuries!
  • The court is too grippy, if we play on ice we wouldn't push off so hard so we have less injuries!
  • If you are tired, you will put less effort in hard sprinting. So making the game LONGER will make sure the players will pace themselves and have less injuries!
  • To prevent all leg injuries, I propose we amputate all legs.
 
pcll99 said:
I propose Women's Singles scores end at 15 instead of 21.

What do you think?
Click to expand...
some historical context.

women’s singles in the old scoring system (point scored on serve) used to be up to 11 points per game. MS, MD, WD, MxD were 15 points per game.

Around 2001, matches were taking too long. One of the proposed solutions was to reduce the scores of WD and MxD to 11 point games. That looks like gender discrimination and IBF was taken to CAS for exactly that and IBF(or was it BWF) lost the case. That’s why now we have equal scoring system across all events.

Here is a link to a PDF which describes the scoring system then

https://staffnew.uny.ac.id/upload/132308481/pendidikan/Bahan+Ajar+Perwasitan+BT+2.pdf


Now if you were to try to reduce the women’s singles to 15 points, you will get the same accusation of gender discrimination so it’s a bit tricky without good evidence. Women are prone to ACL injury in other sports as well - football, netball. So would reducing duration matches lead to reduced injuries? Bear in mind, injury might even occur during training which is what happened to Marin for her left knee ACL.
 
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pcll99 said:
1. I cannot remember how many career-ending moments I have witnessed in Women's Singles in the last 16 years in major tournaments: Wang Lin, Wang Xin, LXR, Marin, etc. They were the very best.

2. This cannot continue.

3. Players' health and safety must take precedence over everything else.

4. I propose Women's Singles scores end at 15 instead of 21.

What do you think?
Click to expand...

The problem is that the less points are played, the more likely it is for weaker players to get lucky enough to beat stronger players. It would make upsets more common.

To prevent this, we could make it so that you only get a point on the rallies where you are serving? So, if the opponent is serving, you have to win one rally to win back the serve first, and only then can you play for points.

I know it sounds a bit convoluted, but I really think I'm onto something here.
 
There are several options:

A) how about limiting each match to 45 minutes only! would that be better? 15-point per game. The winner is the one with most points in aggregate. A third game would be played up to 11 points if there is a tie in the two previous games.

B) two games only with 21-point game; The winner is the one with most points in aggregate. A third game would be played up to 11 points if there is a tie in the two previous games.

C) allow two coach-initiated breaks per game

D) Permutation of the above.

E) none of the above; please specify
 
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Nothing needs to change. Injuries are part of the game...it's a part of sports. You cannot change the rules without impacting the long list of women singles players that have come before, as well as the history that ought to be honored.

There have been other athletes in different sports that suffer career-ending injuries. Scientifically, the best way to avoid injuries is to do strength training, and to fortify the muscles and ligaments. Even then it doesn't guarantee the player will have a career free of injuries. The only other way to evade injuries is to just sit at home.
 
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I am not a fan of CM, but I cried along with her, like most of you.

BADMINTON-OLY-PARIS-202445346457_1722826101.jpg
 
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Olympic champion An Se-young accuses badminton association of injury ‘neglect’

SEOUL – South Korea’s sports ministry said on Aug 6 that it would investigate allegations by new Olympic badminton champion An Se-young that she was neglected by her national federation while injured.

World No. 1 An swept to singles gold on Aug 5 in Paris with a 21-13, 21-16 victory over China’s He Bingjiao.

Shortly after, the 22-year-old shocked fans at home in South Korea by telling reporters: “I think it may be difficult to continue with the national team after this moment.”

An accused the Korea Badminton Association of not providing adequate support while she was suffering from a knee injury suffered in 2023.

She said that she had to compete in pain because of the injury and had even been initially misdiagnosed regarding its severity.

“I was so disappointed with (the association) during my injury. I really can’t get over those moments,” An said, without getting into further details.

But she accused the association of “neglecting” its responsibilities.


https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.co...ic-gold-over-how-staff-handled-injury/2106350
 
some players cry; some are not allowed to. Instead, your coach might tell you: "Get Up and Keep Fighting"

rio-de-janeiro-brazil-xuerui-li-of-china-lays-injured-on-the-court-during-the-womens-badminton.jpg
 
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And don't forget Zhang Beiwen.

And why is it always at the Olympics?!?

Wang Xin 2012
Li Xuerui 2016
Zhang Beiwen 2020/1
Marin 2024
 
Realistically, I think ASY and VA (to be counter-signed by many other athletes) can lodge a complaint to the Executive Board of the International Olympic Council, alleging BWF wants the athletes to keep playing despite being seriously ill.

With Poul Eric Larsen at the helm, I think IOC maybe willing to listen.

IOC did expel International Boxing Association a few months ago because of some gender issues.
 
pcll99 said:
Viktor Axelsen of Denmark took aim at the Badminton World Federation (BWF) for failing to protect players' health by mandating world's top 15 players in the singles events and top 10 pairs in the doubles disciplines to play a minimum of 12 out of 15 tournaments of the World Tour Series or face a penalty.

https://www.badmintonplanet.com/bad...h-swipe-bwf-many-players-getting-injured.html
Click to expand...

I think there are two big areas to address:

A) as above the clause that mandates top players to attend tournaments is a legacy issue dating back to the late 1990’s when the game was less strong. Certainly this requirement I can see being easily removed.

B) registration for tournaments which is controlled through the associations. An association could force you to travel and play when injured (if you’re employed by them). This registration issue is much harder. BWF may get some of its income through the national associations and BWF won’t want to upset them. Therefore as you mention in a later post, the pressure to change will have to come from an external body .
 
pcll99 said:
Realistically, I think ASY and VA (to be counter-signed by many other athletes) can lodge a complaint to the Executive Board of the International Olympic Council, alleging BWF wants the athletes to keep playing despite being seriously ill.

With Poul Eric Larsen at the helm, I think IOC maybe willing to listen.

IOC did expel International Boxing Association a few months ago because of some gender issues.
Click to expand...
Should be CAS, not IOC.

The boxing issue was also because of governance problems within IBA. Not gender issues.
 
I doubt IOC will have any say in what goes on with BWF and their governing style.

Badminton as a televised sport has it's issues (refereeing, prize money, advertising and publicity, social media) but I don't believe the rule or how the game is played need changing to cater to a certain group or, god forbid, certain players.

If you cut the number the tournaments that the top players should participate in, you lose advertisers and you risk turning away fans that only really get once chance in a whole year to see their favorite player. Badminton as a sport is not exactly the most popular thing on earth. By limiting the opportunities those fans get to engage in the sport, the less popular the sport then ultimately becomes. The schedule of BWF is demanding, but that has always been the case. Every player. I repeat, EVERY player on the tour plays under the same circumstance. You win some and you lose some. And those who win all the time gets all the glory. Momota back in 2019, and Axelsen in 2021-2022 are some recent examples. The fact that they can play all these tournaments back to back and win them is something special that make these players immortal in our eyes.

Another thing about the hectic schedule is that it is the great equalizer. Let me explain. If BWF has only 5 tour events in a given year and that players get to rest and train in between the tournaments to fully prepare for it. I think the winners of those tournaments will be quite one-sided. Someone as dominant as Axelsen now has all the time in the world to get ready for the tournament and blow everyone out of the water. But with the schedule as is, you play in back to back tournaments. You win one tour, but you may be sore or fatigued for the next upcoming tournament, so you end up losing that tournament. But in losing that tournament you now get the time to recuperate, while that tournament's champion gets less of it. This is the great equalizer. It gives chances for other players to compete and it gives us the audience with the chance to see someone else win.

The players can use that time to recover and/or train. And who is to say that you won't get injured during training? Which leads me to my next point.

I repeat: injuries are part of sports. When you play on the limit like these professionals do, the chance of injuries are greater. But that is what the training is for. You look at Lee Chong Wei back when he was playing compared to how he looks like now. When he was playing he looked ripped with crazy muscle definition. Even when comparing his physiology in late 2000s to mid 2010s, he looked jacked! I've seen videos of him doing squats with real heavy weights. Another player who takes strength training seriously is Axelsen. You look at his physique now compared to when he won bronze in Rio. He looks more muscular now. Using both these players as examples, they clearly had the skills but when faced with roadblocks now and again (in the form of Lin Dan for the former and Momota for the latter) they decided that this was what it took to get the advantage over their opponents. Getting stronger is also important as you age. Your body will not be able to do heal faster compared to when you are young. Marin is on the back end of her career. Injuries at her age become more likely, and when it happens it could be harder to come back from.

Looking at examples from another sport. You look at Michael Jordan and how much he has bulked up over the years. He decided to get stronger because his opponents (late 80s Pistons, 90s Knicks) found that the way to defeat him was to physically beat him. I am not saying that everyone should just do weights and suddenly become miles better. But becoming stronger physically means that you are less prone to major injuries. Back to badminton, I look at Gregoria Mariska Tunjung and how much she has leaned up. I will even say that her legs looks stronger. And the result? look at how much more confident she is playing. She is winning against tough opponents, playing deeper into tournaments, and just recently bagged a bronze medal in Paris, I think one player who can benefit from doing a bit more strength training is Kunlavut Vittidsarn. He clearly has skills but i think it will be hard for him to take it to the next level of constantly winning championships when he doesn't focus on his fitness. But I am just an armchair commentator, what do I know...

I don't need to look very far either. Who here among you is not carrying some form of small injury or some nagging discomfort or even general soreness? We are not even getting paid to play this sport and we were injured. That is just how it is.

At the risk of sounding callous and insensitive, might I remind you that the world is unfair. You might think you are hot stuff back in the junior ranks but then become just a journeyman once you are on the senior circuit. Is it fair that Momota got into the accident and thus robbing us of the potential Momota-Axelsen rivalry? Is it fair that Malaysia never won a single badminton gold despite having the arguable GOAT in Lee Chong Wei? Is it fair for Marin to get injured while she is winning the match and was well on her way to a guaranteed medal? Life is unfair. Axelsen and An Se Young can complain all they want about the punishing schedule, but guess what? There is always someone out there willing to do it. Axelsen and ASY can skip tournaments all they want and get penalized, but don't complain if they get poor seeding and have to face tougher opponents or, worse, do not qualify for certain prestigious tournaments like WTFinals and Olympics.

TLDR: let's not fix what is not broken.
 
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Points well taken, but maybe a bit harsh.

I would agree that the game itself doesn't have to change (for health reasons),
But reducing the mandatory number of tournaments to be played could make a difference.
For example, the specific training to prevent injuries, you mentioned, is best done at one's home base, not on the road.

We fans want to see our heroes as often as possible. Sometimes it's easy to forget that they are merely human beings being asked to perform , all over the planet, more often than any time before.
 
Fidget said:
Points well taken, but maybe a bit harsh.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Yes I agree I was being a bit harsh to both OP and the players. But I think the main point I want to emphasize is that, we should not cry afoul so quickly and jump into conclusions, or worse, call for changes that may not even be the cause to these issues.

Looking into Marin's injury history, her knee has been surgically reconstructed. It will never be 100%. Add to that she has injured it several times since.

I am not a doctor but I feel after you suffer a major injury like Marin did, you often end up compensating it your gait and steps, which then tends to lead to injuries on other load-bearing body parts, as happened to Marin.

It was also her choice not to wear some sort of brace given her knee injury history. You look at how much taped up ASY's knee was throughout the Olympics. So you cannot simply just blame how tough the game is when the players themselves opt not to take precaution.

Having said this much already, I will offer some form of suggestion in how I think it could be fair for players and incentivize them to play. The BWF could abolish the penalties as well as the mandatory tournaments players need to participate in. In exchange the points system for ranking can be amended slightly so that the difference between winners, runners up, semis, quarters, etc. are not so wide.

Using a typical Super 1000 tournament as an example: Winner gets 12000 points, runner up gets 10200, semi gets 8400. My system would instead be winner gets 12000, but runner up gets 11200, and semis get 10800. The actual points you can gain doesn't matter. What matters is that the points are closer than what they currently are.

The idea being you are allowing the top players to pick and choose how often they want to play, but in doing so, it will mean allowing those below the ranks to rise faster and pose problems in seeding and matchups in tournaments down the line. You might even lose your rankings by skipping tournaments. Basically, you are incentivizing players to keep playing while also not penalizing their need for rest and recovery.
 
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