Yonex FRENCH Open Superseries 2015 : SEMIFINALS (24th October 2015)

[Loh]

relates to Luan Jin, it is just an info.
I'm not interest to compare Rudi (born 1949) with china younger player Luan Jin (born 1958 as you say), bcoz I know they can give me 1001 reasons about it.

I'm only interest to compare the prime Rudi vs the oldies Tang or Hou who nearly retire.


actually, there was one player who is more superior, HAN JIAN...China's first world champion and has the same age with Liem Swie King, born 1956.

Rudi still can win over LSK even until 1980 IBF WC in jkt, when Rudi already 31 y.o., but Rudi vs Han Jian was never happened.

reason ? we already know.

Great that you can remember all those incidents.

It is difficult to actually know the answers, apart from those stated above, unless Rudy is confronted to provide them. We missed the opportunity as Rudy was in Singapore recently to speak to our newly formed Badminton Coaches Association.

 

[Loh]

I remember we could only listened to the radio (there were no tv telecast) broadcast for two days.

Being new and somewhat fresh entry to the badminton world, we were supporting China. It carried on until Xiong Guo Bao, Yang Yang and Zhao Jian Hua.

In fact, both countries first met in an exhibition match in Singapore.

Unfortunately there were no videos to tape some of the great players like Tang, Hou and Rudy.
Otherwise we could see them in action during their prime.
However there used to be IBF recordings which can be bought and when black and white TV was introduced, badminton tournaments can also be recorded by fans. I remember I used to do this but my bulky tapes have turned mouldy by now.

 

[nilesh123]

Talking about players' noise and screams on court, more particularly those of Marin versus WSX, this is nothing compared to that produce by Halep and Sharapova in tennis.

I'm now watching the match between both of them at the WTA Finals in Singapore. At one stage both screamed after every shot. But now Sharapova had the better of Halep, both in screaming and in score, with Sharapova leading 6-4 and 5-3 in Set 2.

She won yesterday easily rooting for her to take the title thanks to Serena... Also out Ind pearl sania/Martina looks in good form.. SM should defend her title

 

[Loh]

Interestingly, if I'm not wrong both Tang and Hou originated from Indonesia and they hardly spoke Mandarin when they moved to China although they were proficient in Indonesian.

As with most Chinese from Southeast Asia, their forefathers migrated from mainland China long ago because of difficulties back home. Just like even today, migrants from war-torn countries in Europe and Asia are trying to find a new home where life for themselves and their families could be better, so they think. But many lost their lives trying to escape from their misery either lost at sea as boat people or being murdered by ransome seekers who cheated them.

As for Tang and Hou, although they were born in Indonesia, they were unfortunately forced to return to China as the then Indonesian government did not take kindly to the Chinese as China was a communist country.
(http://www.badmintoncentral.com/for...g-Xianhu-The-Thing-(Is-He-The-Greatest-Ever-)

So it could be said that the great Tang Sin Fu can be considered half Chinese, half Indonesian, at least in nationality.

Come to think of it Rudy Hartono is also Chinese Indonesian or Indonesian Chinese, whichever you prefer.

 

[Justin L]

relates to Luan Jin, it is just an info.
I'm not interest to compare Rudi (born 1949) with china younger player Luan Jin (born 1958 as you say), bcoz I know they can give me 1001 reasons about it.

I'm only interest to compare the prime Rudi vs the oldies Tang or Hou who nearly retire.


actually, there was one player who is more superior, HAN JIAN...China's first world champion and has the same age with Liem Swie King, born 1956.

Rudi still can win over LSK even until 1980 IBF WC in jkt, when Rudi already 31 y.o., but Rudi vs Han Jian was never happened.

reason ? we already know.

Fortune, your knowledge and information of those times, during the era of Tang Xianhu - Hou Jiachang - Rudy Hartono, is much appreciated.

 

[Fortune]

Fortune, your knowledge and information of those times, during the era of Tang Xianhu - Hou Jiachang - Rudy Hartono, is much appreciated.

Great that you can remember all those incidents.

it's easy to find the data
everyone can get it easily

It is difficult to actually know the answers, apart from those stated above, unless Rudy is confronted to provide them. We missed the opportunity as Rudy was in Singapore recently to speak to our newly formed Badminton Coaches Association.

if only they were only 1 duel between Chn and Ina...then yes, maybe it is just a coincident..but after several competition without Rudi Hartono...hmm...

 

[Fortune]

[MENTION=98683]Fortune[/MENTION]:
See, it makes no sense to continue arguing...
Leaving scheduling, easy/hard draws, walkovers, fixed matches and air con aside I have to ask you one last question:

Let's assume you play badminton and you play a singles match against your friend. You win in three sets, 21-18 in the third. Which one of the following statements do you think is the most appropriate? If you'd have to pick one even if you do not agree with any of them. (You got to have a tendency...)

a) It was a close match. I could have lost but I secured victory in the end.

b) It was an easy match for me; no big deal.

c) I absolutely destroyed him. I would have won a thousand times if we were to play this match again and again.

of course the answer is A

but my point is Chong Wei can't get 19 points (21-19) in G3 London 2012 without help from the linejudge.
that's the point.
one wrong call actually cost 2 points...so it should be 21 - 17...not even close...

 

[udin_udik]

then why Rudi was affraid to challenge Tang and Hou at AG Teheran 1974 ?

Rudi at his prime, 25 y.o., with great reputation among IBF member, 7 times AE MS winner...while Hou 6 years older and almost retire, but still, Hou and China won their first gold individual and team in Asian Games

It's such an offensive accusation calling Rudy was afraid to play Tang and Hou. Both Tang and Hou was defeated by Iie Sumirat, Indonesia #2 (after Rudy) in Bangkok 1976. Tang was 34 yo, past his prime while Iie Sumirat was still in his prime 26 yo.
Both Tang and Rudy are great player. Tang and Rudy have never played each other, their Head to head = 0:0, so just let it be like that. There should no assumption and accusation to both of them.
T

 

[udin_udik]

Unfortunately there were no videos to tape some of the great players like Tang, Hou and Rudy.
Otherwise we could see them in action during their prime.
However there used to be IBF recordings which can be bought and when black and white TV was introduced, badminton tournaments can also be recorded by fans. I remember I used to do this but my bulky tapes have turned mouldy by now.

I watched few videos of Rudy and Iie Sumirat playing in a match against the danes, and Tang while practising. Search in youtube.

 

[Loh]

It's such an offensive accusation calling Rudy was afraid to play Tang and Hou. Both Tang and Hou was defeated by Iie Sumirat, Indonesia #2 (after Rudy) in Bangkok 1976. Tang was 34 yo, past his prime while Iie Sumirat was still in his prime 26 yo.
Both Tang and Rudy are great player. Tang and Rudy have never played each other, their Head to head = 0:0, so just let it be like that. There should no assumption and accusation to both of them.
T

Agree whole heartedly!

 

[Loh]

I watched few videos of Rudy and Iie Sumirat playing in a match against the danes, and Tang while practising. Search in youtube.

Actually I've watched both of them in Singapore.

To me Rudy is of course the 'supreme' athlete in his prime. He moves about the court with such ease and grace like a dancer.

 

[Rob3rt]

of course the answer is A

but my point is Chong Wei can't get 19 points (21-19) in G3 London 2012 without help from the linejudge.
that's the point.
one wrong call actually cost 2 points...so it should be 21 - 17...not even close...

Well, if you agree that a match which is won 21-18 in the third set is close, but draw the line at 21-17 and call it not even close I rest my case...

The first set (21-15 for LCW) was a total humiliation for LD then, I guess...

 

[udin_udik]

A friend of mine from Surabaya, is a friend of Coach Fang Kaixiang's ex pupil. Coach Fang told her that even though Tang was China #1, there are few rare occasions that Fang himself defeated him in official China national matches, not to mention in training. Fang was China #3 and are very close to Tang and Hou. Three of them are all born and raised in Indonesia and left to China on their teen/early twenties.

Team championship was regarded higher and more prestigious back then, as they played for their country. Indonesia Vs China has met few times before China joined IBF, and the outcomes was pretty much even. Coach Fang said it was 3 -3 as far he remembered. But it was true that Rudy has never had the opportunity to play in these matches. Players before Rudy did (probably Tan, Ferry) and after Rudy like Iie and Liem.

 

[Fortune]

It's such an offensive accusation calling Rudy was afraid to play Tang and Hou. Both Tang and Hou was defeated by Iie Sumirat, Indonesia #2 (after Rudy) in Bangkok 1976. Tang was 34 yo, past his prime while Iie Sumirat was still in his prime 26 yo.

what is the need to bring Iie Sumirat into this discussion ?

Iie Sumirat was well handled by Han Jian in the super important match Badminton Friendly Singapore 1980 and perhaps in SF AG 1978 in Bangkok.

Both Tang and Rudy are great player. Tang and Rudy have never played each other, their Head to head = 0:0, so just let it be like that. There should no assumption and accusation to both of them.
T

H2H 0:0 bcoz of what ?
Rudi wasn't there, right ?
then why ?

btw, their H2H are equal bcoz Rudi was absent...but the BIG difference is Hou has the AG gold medal while Rudi never won it before and after 1974 AG

 

[Fortune]

A friend of mine from Surabaya, is a friend of Coach Fang Kaixiang's ex pupil. Coach Fang told her that even though Tang was China #1, there are few rare occasions that Fang himself defeated him in official China national matches, not to mention in training. Fang was China #3 and are very close to Tang and Hou. Three of them are all born and raised in Indonesia and left to China on their teen/early twenties.

Team championship was regarded higher and more prestigious back then, as they played for their country. Indonesia Vs China has met few times before China joined IBF, and the outcomes was pretty much even. Coach Fang said it was 3 -3 as far he remembered. But it was true that Rudy has never had the opportunity to play in these matches. Players before Rudy did (probably Tan, Ferry) and after Rudy like Iie and Liem.

disagree.
How Hou Jiachang successfully defeat Liem Swie King in AG 1974 if Liem doesn't has the opportunity to play in the match ?

LSK vs Han Jian in 1978 AG, is it possible if LSK doesn't has the opportunity ?

Han Jian vs LSK and also Han Jian vs Sumirat in Singapore 1980...is it possible if they are not allowed by PBSI ?

is it possible ?

of all the tournaments, why we only have one BIG name that are missing from the line up ? why only Rudi who was absent ?


as I know, China - Ina = 2-1, not 3-3.
can you name the other 3 events ?

and if that so, what do you think about Rudi who was absent in all 6 meetins ?
Coincident ? hmm....

 

[udin_udik]

I have said it clearly, the absency of someone from a tournament, doesn't justify anyone to call it as an act of cowardice. You are free to think the other way anyway.

China - Indonesia national team has played during 60's when Rudy was not playing for national team yet.
1963 Indonesia national team visited China and they Lost.
1964 China come to Jakarta and they Won
1964 Indonesia come to Beijing and they Won
1974 Indonesia Lost in Asian Games Teheran
1976 China lost in Asian Badminton Championship India
1976 China lost in Invitational Bangkok

There was another meeting in Jakarta 1963, where Indonesia won, but later on Tang confirmed that they were told to lose by the coaches to respect Indonesia as the host of that GANEFO games. I don't include this meeting in the list.

Anyway Iie Sumirat is 6 years older than Han Jian. And He lost to many other players other than Han Jian. Same goes to other great players, there are days they don't perform well because of injuries and many other factors.

 

[indrg]

disagree.
How Hou Jiachang successfully defeat Liem Swie King in AG 1974 if Liem doesn't has the opportunity to play in the match ?

LSK vs Han Jian in 1978 AG, is it possible if LSK doesn't has the opportunity ?

Han Jian vs LSK and also Han Jian vs Sumirat in Singapore 1980...is it possible if they are not allowed by PBSI ?

is it possible ?

of all the tournaments, why we only have one BIG name that are missing from the line up ? why only Rudi who was absent ?


as I know, China - Ina = 2-1, not 3-3.
can you name the other 3 events ?

and if that so, what do you think about Rudi who was absent in all 6 meetins ?
Coincident ? hmm....

Ok... CHN is the best... but they all were born in Indonesia nonetheless... we are all chinese Indonesians and I am proud for being one despite the tragic events in the past while Suharto still ruled.

 

[Fortune]

I have said it clearly, the absency of someone from a tournament, doesn't justify anyone to call it as an act of cowardice. You are free to think the other way anyway.

if only he (Rudi) was absent in only one occasion, then I'm agree with you. it is not fair to called someone as a coward.

but since he was absent in 5 or 6 occasion,...

btw, when Ina vs any country in IBF competition (team and individual)...

AE 1968, 69,70, 71, 72 until 76 or 77...he (Rudi) always participated
Thomas Cup 1967, 70, 73, 76 and 79...he always there


meanwhile when China vs Ina...

Asian Games 1974...
Invitational Bangkok 1976...
ABC 1978 (as you claim)...
Asian Games 1978...
Badminton Friendly Singapore 1980...

he always absent


very strange

China - Indonesia national team has played during 60's when Rudy was not playing for national team yet.
1963 Indonesia national team visited China and they Lost.
1964 China come to Jakarta and they Won
1964 Indonesia come to Beijing and they Won
1974 Indonesia Lost in Asian Games Teheran
1976 China lost in Asian Badminton Championship India
1976 China lost in Invitational Bangkok

There was another meeting in Jakarta 1963, where Indonesia won, but later on Tang confirmed that they were told to lose by the coaches to respect Indonesia as the host of that GANEFO games. I don't include this meeting in the list.

source please especially 2 events in 1976.
cmiiw, Invitational Bangkok only for individual, not team competition

Anyway Iie Sumirat is 6 years older than Han Jian. And He lost to many other players other than Han Jian. Same goes to other great players, there are days they don't perform well because of injuries and many other factors.

I don't think Sumirat is a great player.
being a "giant killer" doesn't mean he is great, plus one of the giant is too old for badminton competition.

Tian Houwei (ranked outside 100) can win against world #1 Lee Chong Wei, but is he a great player ?


anyway, what else Sumirat can win ?
I don't know exactly, but he never won World Champ, Asian Games, French open, All England, Denmark open and so on...so what is so special about him ?

if Sumirat vs Tang or Hou happened 2 or 5 years before, I'm very sure Tang and Hou will win.

since 1974 AG, Tang switch to MD or XD, because this is easier for old player who nearly retire, but Sumirat (born 1956) only can win in rubber sets against Tang (born 1942) and Hou (born 1944)...so we can say Sumirat only can win with stamina advantage.

 

[Fortune]

leave their #1 at home for (at least) 5 important event and only let their #2, 3, 4 and so on to play against their arch rival ?

it is like China leave Lin Dan at home during 2004 - 2012 TC / SC and only let Bao CL, Chen Jin and Chen Long to do the task.

very strange.

and why their #2, 3 and 4 had the opportunity to play in those match while their best player cannot ???

which country will do the same if there are not something suspicious about that ?

I also never heard Indonesia use Rudi absence as the reason why the lose to China, because I think PBSI and Rudi itself know that they can't win against Tang and Hou until 1974 AG.

even if Rudi really injury or any significant reason, then why he also absent in 1978 AG, consider that Hou and Tang already 34 and 36 y.o., besides he also never won AG gold medal before ???


btw, next year is Thomas Cup.
let see which country will leave behind their country #1, out of Thomas Cup competition.

I don't think if any country will apply this very strange strategy.


one last thing,
Rudi still there in 1979 Thomas and even 1980 World Champ in Jkt...
also he is only one year older than Sumirat...
but we never heard any news about him during Badminton Friendly between China and Indonesia in Singapore 1980 as a representation of WBF and IBF. why ?

 

[udin_udik]

source please especially 2 events in 1976.
cmiiw, Invitational Bangkok only for individual, not team competition

ABC was in 1976, now it becomes BAC without team competition any longer. Source
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badminton_Asia_Championships

Well if you don't count Invitational Bangkok, what about Asian games 1978 ? where Indonesia won as well.

since 1974 AG, Tang switch to MD or XD, because this is easier for old player who nearly retire, but Sumirat (born 1956) only can win in rubber sets against Tang (born 1942) and Hou (born 1944)...so we can say Sumirat only can win with stamina advantage.

You got your fact incorrect. Sumirat was born in 1950.

Anyway this will be my last post in this thread, as this is way out of topic. If in any chance you know any of these players, you'll be surprise that they don't have those hatred towards each other. They might be arch-rival on court, but they are friends and family off court. Liang Chusia was playing for China while her brother Tjun Tjun was playing for Indonesia. When Tang played in Jakarta, his parents, cousins and family come watched him and he was playing for China.

Later on Tang was in PBSI during late 80s to late 90s while Rudy was there as well. Liang Chusia worked alongside Imelda in PBSI in 90s even though they were rivals back then in 70s. Fang Kaixiang was back to Indonesia in 2000s. It's a small world, and they are friends each other.