Z-force 2 is terrible, looking for a new heavy head

Discussion in 'Racket Recommendation / Comparison' started by Zohar, Feb 9, 2022.

  1. Zohar

    Zohar Regular Member

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    I've been playing with zf2 3u for a couple of years now. Recently, I tried someone's (Kit) 4u (nanoflare and some Li-Ning), and to my surprise, I got more powerful shots, and overall it was easier to play with it (e.g. clear back to back).

    Today, someone (Gin) pointed out to me that my racket has narrow head! How did I miss that all this time? It means small sweet spot, which makes the racket terrible. With all my mishits, I need a friendly, forgiving racket.

    On to top of that, the shaft that is extra-slim is apparently extra-stiff. How come? Slim means less material, means more flexible. Extra-stiff means low repulsion, means less power.

    I went to Yonex site to check the specs, and I can't find it?? It's a 2017 model. Not that it would have helped much, e.g.:

    https://www.yonex.com/badminton/racquets/astrox/astrox-100zz-ax100zz

    "For advanced players looking for immediate access to power to maintain a relentless attack"
    What is this nonsense, how does this inform me of anything? Has the person who wrote this ever played badminton?

    "Flex Extra Stiff"
    No repulsion?

    "Length 10 mm longer"
    Isn't the racket size standard? Suddenly, they decided that longer is better? Aren't we already wired for a certain dimension?

    Beyond that, the technology sounds like a bunch of nonsense.

    Let's look at one of the stores:

    https://badmintonclick.com.au/colle.../yonex-voltric-z-force-2-4u-badminton-racquet

    "The Extra Stiff racket shaft allows Hard Hitters to create power smashes that penetrates your opponent's defenses."
    Can someone explain the physics of this?

    "Isometric..to produce expanded sweet spot"
    No, it's not. The head is narrow with large aspect ratio. The sweet spot is tiny. What is this BS?

    "To balance the heavy head, the frame has been made smaller to maintain swing demand"
    The f*ck? Since it would have been heavy head, we decided to make the head smaller, so the racket will be lighter and not heavy head anymore. If it's too heavy for you, did you consider 4u or a light headed racket?

    Instead of all this nonsense, I prefer specifics:
    - Head A/R, width, height, sweet spot area.
    - Weight distribution, momentum.
    - Flexibility.
    Keep to yourself all the stories.

    ---

    Bottom line, I need a recommendation, please:
    3u, heavy head, large head.

    I'm ordering online, and I can't try it. So, something mainstream that won't disappoint.

    I'm ordering from Australia to NZ:

    https://badmintonclick.com.au/collections/head-heavy-badminton-racquets-power-player

    https://www.calibreaustralia.com/badminton/catalog/
     
  2. John Xina

    John Xina Regular Member

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    Stiffer racquets repel harder and stronger but require more strength and speed put into them in order to make power. Sounds like you need something a bit easier to play with, so I'd suggest grabbing a Yonex Astrox 77 3U. It's not very demanding and does a good job in every area of performance.
     
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  3. John Xina

    John Xina Regular Member

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    At 2:35 is where he explains racquet stiffness in an easy to understand way.
     
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  4. Zohar

    Zohar Regular Member

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    His facts are correct, the bottom line is wrong (or misrepresented).

    A flexible racket creates a whip effect--repulsion.

    "If you put more speed in a stiff racket, you'll get more power."
    Sure, but how's that a fair comparison? Same player has X max power. X invested in a stiff vs a flexible racket, which one will have more replusion?

    It's like saying that a string with higher tension will generate more repulsion if we put more power into it. Reminds me the analogy: pizza delivery is free, but if you buy it at the shop, then you get a discount.

    Indeed, it seems that after astrox 77, all the astrox are stiff, and the 100 is extra stiff. I had astrox 77, and it was nice. But now, it's too old, e.g. my shop sells only 4u.

    I'll probably need to compromise on stiffness.
    I know that the dimension of ax 99 is decent. Does anyone know the dimension of ax 100, is it as large as ax 99? Ridiculous that I can't get this critical information.
     
  5. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    depends on what X is.

    If X is Fu Haifeng, the stiff racket will have more repulsion.

    If X is beginner, the flexible will have more repulsion.

    It is not a linear graph. The curve changes depending on the player. It's all about fit.
     
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  6. John Xina

    John Xina Regular Member

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    Alright, you're on your own, dude. Good luck with your search.
     
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  7. Zohar

    Zohar Regular Member

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    @John Xina, you can retire from the discussion without the drama.

    @kwun, X is speed e.g. 30m/sec (mass is fixed, so momentum depends on speed, which is affected by material flexibility--whiplash effect). Physics doesn't change from player to player.
     
    #7 Zohar, Feb 9, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2022
  8. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    A weak player won't be able to get the racket to 30m/sec.
     
  9. Budi

    Budi Regular Member

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    Racket shaft are not solid tube (exception to 100zz), there is hollow part inside. So slimmer shaft not always less material, it can be less hollow area inside.
    Also carbon fiber, depend on how you wrap/roll it each other could result different stiffness on final product.

    About how stiffness relate to power.
    Stiffer racket had higher ceiling for max power due to its nature (stiff) when bended it will snap back harder. But to be able to bend it one require to had stronger swing. Yes the racket characteristic are the same but player attribute vary alot especially on non pro player.

    For the lenght of racket, the standard actually not specific number but ranged number. My old Lining are shorter than my TK770. Longer racket gain abit more power & reach while shorter one excel at handling.

    about the compact head. Its not mean to makes racket lighter but smaller head mean less area in contact with air upon swinging which mean less air drag resulting faster swing (tho not by much).

    Last. Dont get eaten up by marketing word. Most of them are not highly complicated high tech stuff, but just simple logic but many times its not common for our daily life so we easily tricked.
     
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  10. Ballschubser

    Ballschubser Regular Member

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    Basically this is the point, thought I would not prefer the term harder, but faster would be better.
    The issue with the stiffness of a racket is the time window in which the racket will release its stored power by speeding up the racket face. A stiff racket has a very small time window, but will produce an higher velocity, whereas a flex racket has a larger time window, but will release it with less velocity.

    And here the player is important. Is the player able to load the racket just before releasing it and hitting the time widow perfectly to hit the shuttle when the racket face reached its max velocity ?

    It is far less about power of the player, but about the exact timing. A pro player who trains 6 days , >4 hrs each day has perfected his timing, so that he is able to utilize this small time window of a stiff racket to generate really high racket face velocity. On the other hand most players with only 5-10 hrs training a week will have a very hard time to get the timing right. Misstiming will result in lower velocity and therefor a flexible racket which has a much larger time window, thought with lower max velocity, will generate higher velocity eventually when used by non-pro players.

    You can generate enough power with a stiff racket by brute force, but this will exhaust you quite easily, so that your clears will get shorter and shorter after some time.

    Therefor, beginners should start with a very flexible racket (most low budget rackets are already), intermediate to advanced should test out more stiff (medium) rackets, because they are able to hit the right time window much better. But (extra) stiff rackets are ego rackets for the majority of players. I doubt that any casual player or low league player will invest so much training time to manage a stiff/extra stiff racket other than using brute force.
     
  11. Zohar

    Zohar Regular Member

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    @Budi and @Ballschubser, I see your point re shaft flexibility for a pro. As an intermediate level player, I'll prefer something flexible if there's a choice. It seems that I'll need to compromise on this point, which is probably less influential than weight (3u), balance (heavy head), and head size (large area).

    @Budi, I don't see the difference in wind resistance. The strings are the ones to create resistance. Their distribution space shouldn't make a difference.

    I posted separately:

    https://www.badmintoncentral.com/fo...-head-size-of-yonex-astrox-99-and-100.189093/

    Bottom line, I've only heard about astrox 99 and 100, and I tried the 99. Are there other interesting candidates or should I just pick one of these?
     
    #11 Zohar, Feb 9, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2022
  12. Ballschubser

    Ballschubser Regular Member

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    Astrox 99 and 100 are by far really stiff rackets (100 zz is the stiffest yonex racket afaik), thought the low budget models might be more flexible.

    As already said, the astrox 77 is the most flexible astrox racket, still medium flex and really nice to play. I use the 77 nowadays, thought I although own the older 88s (stiff) and 88d(extra stiff), but they are a lot harder to play with, so they are only my emergency replacement rackets .
     
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  13. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    Smaller head means less string surface means less air resistance when swinging it.

    Regarding shaft stiffness, I think the easiest way to imagine the shaft is to see it like a spring. A soft spring is easy to bend and by that, to store energy in it that can be released once the spring snaps back. A hard spring can store a lot more energy, but it needs more force to be bent in the first place. But if you have enough force to bend it, it will give you more energy back once it's "unloaded". The better a player's technique and strength, the stiffer the shaft that he or she is able to bend during a smash swing and the higher the potential energy that the shaft can add to the stroke if everything works perfectly.

    However, looking at the whole swing and stroke physics, this "shaft support" is just a small part of the whole kinetic chain and all things involved that define the smash power. A Fu Haifeng would still punch a hole through your belly with an AX77. So as others said, in the end it's always about finding the racket that in its entirety fits your swing and feels right to you.

    "The racket chooses you!"
     
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  14. Budi

    Budi Regular Member

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    From the current lineup, thing that are Head heavy like ZF are 99 pro.
    Below 99 pro, there is 88D pro.

    Well, you had tried few of your friend racket, why not get the same racket your friend own in which you like the most.
    Rather than im suggesting one or two which you might like it or not like it.
     
  15. Zohar

    Zohar Regular Member

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    When you suggest something, I probably won't run and buy it immediately, but your suggestion will give me another opinion.

    Trying a racket is the best. However, I tried a few 4u girl's rackets and ax99 for a few rallies. Can really make anything based on that. Not even a full game. Especially in a game like badminton where the shuttle is so inconsistent.

    What I expected:
    - An opinion on ax99 vs ax100 or just saying that they are comparable.
    - A racket from a different brand, e.g. Li-Ning, that I've never heard about, but it's popular as astrox and has better quality.

    It's surprising that yonex has such dominance. Also, I would have expected biased representatives to pop up and make suggestions.
     
  16. Budi

    Budi Regular Member

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    AX99 are head heavier than 100.
    Also 100 had solid shaft (no hollow part inside) & the stiffest in current lineup.
    About 99, the old 99 are stiffer & less friendly. The new 99 pro are easier to use compare to the old one.
    & if 99 Pro are to Head heavy, you can go to 88D pro.

    For Lining, you might want to look at N99ii or TC75 if you can find one. One of great racket, easy to use & great power.
     
  17. UkPlayer

    UkPlayer Regular Member

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    First you've now discovered that others people's opinions of rackets including the manufacturers are bs from your experiment, congratulations
    Second nobody can actually give you a recommendation since you have no idea what specs suit you. Head heavy, 3u, why's that then? Cos other people say so? You've already got one of those and its crap, cos of the smaller head? Really? So now you can't hit properly but you need a head heavy 3u and the larger sweet spot is going to make all the difference... ok
    Third you are intermediate so why are you wasting your money and time on comparing these high end rackets. The only thing that won't dissapoint is a cheap apacs or similar, medium flex medium stiffness, medium balance, no way of going wrong. Even better stick with your current racket and learn how to use it better.
     
    #17 UkPlayer, Feb 10, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2022
  18. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    The head of a ZF2 is no smaller than standard badminton racquets.

    If you going to mishit, it’s going to be a mishit whether larger or standard racquet head size.
     
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  19. Budi

    Budi Regular Member

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    thinking about it, actually when im having Adidas P8 which also compact head, my accuracy not getting worst like 50% of my shot miss hit. Even with my long trusted TK770 sometimes im also miss hit like when im in bad position or getting to much excited from my opponent super bad return.

    My only noticeable issue was when im doing slice shot, my timing are off many times. Well maybe coz the head are smaller or probably the swing speed are different coz P8 definitely faster than my TK770. But again time solve the problem.

    My only issue so far are with AVP. Its to damn fast & light from my preference & ruin my timing alot tho it had normal frame size.
     
    #19 Budi, Feb 10, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2022
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  20. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Yeah. I don’t think anybody can say they definitely do more or fewer mishits according to the racquet head size - you think might make fewer mishits psychologically with a slightly larger frame.

    Good point about slice shots.
     
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