Zhao Jian Hua's technical analysis of Asian Games MS Final

Discussion in 'Asian Games 2010 - Badminton' started by Bbn, Nov 23, 2010.

  1. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    well, Ok, keep those opinions trickling in, objectively of course.

    Especially from the pros and coaches in this forum, the crouching tiger and hidden dragon ones,

    the silent minority.You'll be surprised how many there are here since ages ago.
     
  2. volcom

    volcom Regular Member

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    Agreed wholeheartedly.
    E.g. WC 2005 where LCW was fresh off thrashing Taufik 15-0 at Singapore Open
    WC06 LCW never lost to Bao before in any encounter
    WC07 fresh off beating Sony previous encounter....
    etc...
     
  3. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    Here's what a former national has to say.Easier said than done, maybe can get LCW to develop muscles like Chen Hong for eg.

    Also interesting comment, a coach may need to be more than a nanny,perhaps need to help in development of techniques,

    strategy etc.etc.



    Friday November 26, 2010

    Change style of play

    IT IS disappointing that our badminton players did not win gold medals as they are capable of beating their opponents.

    I am an ardent badminton fan, and after all these years of watching our present players in action, I have made some observations and have come to these conclusions:

    Our Datuk Lee Chong Wei is undoubtedly a world-class player but he still loses to Lin Dan in most of their encounters. In the Beijing Olympics and now in the Asian Games, Lin Dan toyed with him and took control of the game right from the start.

    It is not that Chong Wei cannot match him but tactically, he loses out. Chong Wei did admit that his mental strength is lacking. In my humble opinion, Chong Wei must change his style of play or game plan when he faces Lin Dan.

    I know it, the commentator knows it and most of my badminton kakis are of the same opinion. Looks like everyone knows it except Chong Wei and his coach because since the Olympics, his style of play when he faces Lin Dan has not changed. Lin Dan could anticipate his returns, thereby executing his shots faster than Chong Wei.

    I felt very emotional when I saw him lose to Lin Dan in that manner. So please, do something or else Chong Wei will always lose out to Lin Dan.

    Our top doubles pair of Koo Kien Keat and Tan Boon Heong is also of world-class standard so kudos to Rexy for grooming them to achieve that status, but they are not consistent in their play.

    Why? The answer is simple. When they are in the attacking mode, they win hands down and when they decide to play to the gallery by defending and lifting the shuttle, they lose. Are they not physically fit to last the two or three games in the attacking mode?

    Their Korean, Chinese and Japanese counterparts also win when they play an offensive game – that is the name of the game!

    Every time I watch them play, I am on the edge of my seat and when they start lifting constantly, I stop watching the game as I know they will lose. They can still be at par with the top pairs in the future, so Kien Keat and Boon Heong, please keep the Malaysian flag flying!

    As a former national player, I know and believe we can still rely on their good performance in the near future.

    To BAM, all the best to your new administrative set-up, and hopefully, we will see more Chong Weis, Kean Keats and Boon Heongs in the making.

    JEAN MOEY,

    Subang Jaya.


    © 1995-2010 Star Publications (Malaysia) Bhd (Co No 10894-D)
     
  4. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    Chen Hong was much more than just that, and LCW could do worse than emulate Chen Hong. He was one guy who consistently gave LD the shivers. By my lights, he was really the player's player.



    Are you serious??????
     
  5. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    It's the winner takes all

    .
    What can we say? :confused::confused::confused:

    It's the winner takes all; Should LCW won, we would find very different comments.
    .
     
  6. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Ahhh, but how would he have played to win? Imop, in the JO final, he played much more offensive, and was able to dictate the pace more. He didn't lie down and defend, he sought the attack, and played better against LD than I've ever seen. The key for him to win against LD is to take more risks, and force himself to be positive. LD is just too consistend and too explosive with his attack to easily allow him to be on the offensive. He cant wear him down physically that way either, cause thanks to LD good placement and great power, LCW has to move at least the same or even further than LD to get back a good attacking shot, and doing so, gives LD a very good opportunity to finish the point. That's why he lost this final - he wasn't able to dictate the pace and to attack. Although LD really was in prime condition, and was very very strong mentally, so it would've been very hard to do that.
     
  7. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    Whenever Lin Dan can perform at his best, I think he can to defeat everyone

    .
    Very true. And that's what Zhao Jian Hua has commented on LCW's game too.

    Really, we should give more credits to Lin Dan and criticise less on Lee Chong Wei.

    Whenever Lin Dan can perform at his best, I think he can to defeat everyone.
    .
     
  8. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Ah, so that's what he said - google translation into German was very sketchy, just small parts were understandable :D
    It's true, LD in perfect fighting condition and with proper motivation can win against any singles player. Although LCW can also win against anyone if he is in perfect physical shape and has the right attitude. I think when he plays against LD in the really big matches (OG, AG, AE...) he is so nervous that he doesn't want to risk too much, leaving out opportunities to attack, making it easier for LD to beat him. I'd be delighted to see an OG final/semifinal between the two in 2012 in peak condition, as long as LCW doesn't get too nervous again. I think he developed so nicely, got much a much better offensive game, that he can beat even LD in very good condition - as long as he stays positive. A 3-set match between the two would be a perfect OG final for me, as they still dominate the MS whenever they participate.
    LD is also very similar to CY/FHF: not participating in many tournaments this year, dropping out very soon in 2 of them, but beating anyone once in perfect shape (WC for CY/FHF, AG for LD). I hope the three of them can also take the China Open titles :)
     
  9. wisdomcivet

    wisdomcivet Regular Member

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    Nervous is not the reason for LCW to lost, but LCW must change his style of play or game plan when he faces Lin Dan.

    Even our beloved RTM comentator keep asking dimanakah senjata LCW yang menggerunkan itu(which is smashing and clever pressing to force opponent in reactive mode)... THinks about it and hope LCW will knew about it.

    And 1 thing (my humble opinion) is time for LCW to adapt / find new coach (good tactician coach like TXH) if he wish to beat LD in big game. I can`t afford to see LCW play directionless each time facing LD in Big Important Tournament....


     
  10. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    This reminds me a little about Morten Frost from the past about Zhao Jian Hua :

    When Zhao is playing at his best and his shots work well, the only way to play him is to stay with him (defensive mode)

    and wait for him to make a mistake.in the end Frost did beat Zhao more times because of Zhao's stamina problem.

    In theory LCW should be able to match LD by playing positively as eg. in JO Open or theoretically playing aggressively like Chen Hong in 2006 Semis,

    but it will depend on physical condition, whoever in better condition on that day will turn out the winner.

    I think LD was in poor condition in JO after China league, while LCW was also in poor condition in AG, LD did not even need CJ to wear out LCW for

    him in the semis.In every case both used their strategy according to their own condition and what they believed was the condition of their opponent.

    Many good msian players tend to be defensive, its very hard to change.

    Basically LD is simply a very difficult player to beat whether engaging defensively or positively as he can adjust his game to match his own fitness level or that of his opponent.

    Reminds me of boxing from the past, in 1974 Mohamad Ali was asked about his chance against George Foreman,

    Ali said " I know all about boxing, George Foreman has never boxed more than a few rounds against his opponents,all i have to do is

    to work on my stamina and fitness." In the end Ali dragged Foreman many rounds by using the "rope a dope" tactic and clobbered

    Foreman in the closing rounds when the latter was exhausted. This sort of tactic will never work agaist both LCW or LD as both are very fit,

    the subtle difference is that LD has the better strokes to make LCW stretch more and inflict more damage.Probably CJ has the same problem,

    his strokes eg.at the net, or his lack of deception is unable to force his opponents like LCW to scutter around and drain them off their energy

    but instead he wears himself down more.

    In the end, 2 things dominate,I think :

    1) Having the strokes and skills to trouble opponents (ie.wear down opponents, not winning shots)

    2) Physical condition on that day.

    About coaches, if I remember correctly Xia Xuan Ze always has this pacing problem and is always worn down by opponents like Hendrawan, perhaps that's why he couldn't do much for Chen Jin, TXH however is a legend

    and probably knows badminton to a higher level.
     
    #30 Bbn, Nov 26, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2010
  11. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    To me, TXH was an attacking player

    .
    To me, TXH was an attacking player.

    With his excellent footwork, he was always quick enough to get into position to play with his powerful smashes. Although he was also good at defensive play, I find him preferring to attack more than to defend.

    I think that was the instruction that TXH gave LD; To attack more than to defend.
    .
     
    #31 chris-ccc, Nov 26, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2010
  12. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Sun Tzu's The Art of War.

    Written by Chinese, not Malaysian.

    So that we can understand the difference in approaches and tactics.
     
  13. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    I reproduce again 3 pages of Eddy Choong's article form Ooi Lay Beng's "The Way of the champions".

    As usual there will be comments like past is past etc,so make up your own minds.
     

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  14. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    About culture,mental strength and courage :

    In the Asian games women's archery competition the Koreans and Chinese were asked how they trained

    their archers to be brave.

    The Koreans said that their arches were trained to play with deadly snakes,whilst the Chinese were asked to

    touch the rear of a live tiger.

    In the end the tiger was smitten by the bite of the snake.

    Its not inciting Chinese vs Koreans, after all they are basically from the same mould.
     
  15. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    I think Eddy Choong just underscored the importance of anaerobic training. :) Almost all professional badminton players do train accordingly. Some player's native physiology and mental makeup allow them to align better to get the best results of this type of training, than others.

    I think one of the best examples you could ever find is Peter Rasmussen in that epic 1997 match. And Sun Jun wasn't far behind; if he hadn't injured himself, who knows? They may still still have been playing that match!:eek::eek::D:D
     
  16. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    Anae what? I think this topic needs a bit of up-dating in terms of sports science.

    Malaysian players like Hafiz ,Roslin even Chen Hong are good at playing in short bursts.

    But this is always derailed by long term exhaustion over a long tour eg.what happened to CH in AE 2001 and 2003.

    I dont know about LCW , maybe he trains to be consistent at 95 % but when it comes to the big occasion he is unable to

    raise it one notch to 99 % like some others.Maybe its all related to training, sparring partners to practice speed,or how his body is conditioned,

    for eg. Msian players have been known to be great marathon runners, but they are unable to cope with games requiring explosive short bursts.

    It took Fang Kai Xiang,Han Jian, Yang Yang etc. to take the fitness 1 notch higher in 1988, even then at China's ladies level,to eventually win the thomas Cup.

    Later TXH exported the same tech to INA in the 90s and they in turn displaced Msia.

    I think i wouldn't want to start a fruitless argument here ala Liverpool vs Chelsea, just put two and two together and see the conclusion.
     
  17. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    he didn't injure himself, he suffered from cramps.
     
  18. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Interesing topic, cobalt and Bbn...

    When our muscles work, they can work under one of 2 conditions (or both in parallel) at the cellular level:

    1. aerobic exercise is when oxygen is needed to generate energy and work. Usually this applies to endurance sports eg. marathon runners, Tour de France cyclists, etc.

    2. anaerobic is when oxygen is not needed, or when the energy required is in too short a burst that there is no time for oxygen to be used. This usually applies to short burst high intensity events not over 2 minutes in general, eg. wt lifting, 100m dash. Fast twitch muscle fibres are usually involved. This means that during that time there is oxygen debt, and the body can only last so long in that state, so there needs to be a recovery phase for the body to make up for the lack of oxygen and to get rid of the lactic acid byproducts.

    How does this apply to badminton?

    Obviously, both types of metabolism occur in badminton, as there are short bursts of movement (anaerobic) , and then there is the total length of the rally, game and match, ie. stamina (aerobic).

    So, if a player or coach can understand oneself and his opponent's metabolic makeup, he can use that to his advantage to play at the speed (ie. aerobic vs. anaerobic) that best favours his body and that is detrimental to the opponent's body.

    One example that comes to mind is KKK/TBH. Most of the time when their matches go to the third set against CY/FHF or LYD/JJS, they lose it in the third because they run out of steam. ie. they don't have the stamina (aerobic).
     
  19. roycetan

    roycetan Regular Member

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    And KKK is also the "KING" of fancy shots and a pro diver as well
     
  20. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    I wonder if this "speed" is the key element why some players dont get very far.

    LCW is the exception being exposed to so many training regimes, others may be very skillful,strong,fit,

    know how to pace themselves but may not be trained to play at high speeds played by others.

    Maybe others are aware of it.

    May be wrong though, only inside people will know.

    I wonder if KKK's antics of lifting are just to get a breather, certainly Choong Tan Fook & Lee Wan Wah do it all the time

    and made it work against much fitter opponents.
     

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