Taking Front Court in Mixed?

[Justin N.]

Hello everyone,

I'm a guy that plays mixed doubles at an intermediate-advanced level. I watch a lot of comp badminton videos online of mixed doubles and notice how the guy sometimes is confident enough to move to the front court to execute a kill or a front court push while the girl steps aside to let him move forward. Good example is Zheng/Huang. It's a risky but rewarding tactic if done right.
Now I understand that a fixed formation is the safest way to go, but this is really something I'd like to do occasionally in order to inject pace into the game and surprise my opponents, but I'm not sure how exactly to communicate with my female partner since she's already covering most of the front and it's hard for her to move back or to the side if I try to move up. Any tips on communication/what the girl should do in this case? And WHEN should the male partner move up? Thanks for your input!

 

[phihag]

Well, how do you do communicate in level doubles? Any good player – male or female – should have a feeling for the situation and move to the back when their partner is coming the front. Some players also use a certain code word (e.g. back!).

In mixed (or with a level doubles partner who is better at the front court), you have the added challenge that you want to switch your positioning. The woman must cover fast shots to her side, but everything else depends on the situation. Typically, the woman will cover most of her side. If the shuttle goes back to the man's side, he will move to the back. But the details totally depend a lot on the skills of you and your partner, as well as the situation. At higher levels, the man can easily take a high defense to the woman's side. In some mixed doubles, the difference is not as pronounced and they basically continue as a level doubles would, just accepting a slightly inferior position.

Note that situation is no different to what happens when a long server goes to the woman, or when the woman has to cover for the man in some sticky situation.

As to when to move to the front: There are a number of reasons to do so for the man in mixed doubles:

• The woman has been pushed to the back, for instance by a high serve, or some other situation.
• You want to anticipate a specific shot. For instance, if you manage to play to the backhand of a beginner, it may be advantageous to immediately rush to the front and try to kill the inevitable longline drop.
• Your movement is better than your partner's and fast movement is key. For instance, if you're playing a fast flat game and manage to push it downwards, the response will almost always be something that can be intercepted at the front, given sufficient speed.
  
• The opponent's shot is short, but still not reachable by the woman. She rotates to the side/back so that you can hit (and kill any replies).

So, in other words, the reasons to go the front as the man in mixed doubles are the same as in level doubles. Because it is contrary to your preferred formation in a generic attacking scenario, you just don't do it quite as often.

 

[Justin N.]

Well, how do you do communicate in level doubles? Any good player – male or female – should have a feeling for the situation and move to the back when their partner is coming the front. Some players also use a certain code word (e.g. back!).

In mixed (or with a level doubles partner who is better at the front court), you have the added challenge that you want to switch your positioning. The woman must cover fast shots to her side, but everything else depends on the situation. Typically, the woman will cover most of her side. If the shuttle goes back to the man's side, he will move to the back. But the details totally depend a lot on the skills of you and your partner, as well as the situation. At higher levels, the man can easily take a high defense to the woman's side. In some mixed doubles, the difference is not as pronounced and they basically continue as a level doubles would, just accepting a slightly inferior position.

Note that situation is no different to what happens when a long server goes to the woman, or when the woman has to cover for the man in some sticky situation.

As to when to move to the front: There are a number of reasons to do so for the man in mixed doubles:

• The woman has been pushed to the back, for instance by a high serve, or some other situation.
• You want to anticipate a specific shot. For instance, if you manage to play to the backhand of a beginner, it may be advantageous to immediately rush to the front and try to kill the inevitable longline drop.
• Your movement is better than your partner's and fast movement is key. For instance, if you're playing a fast flat game and manage to push it downwards, the response will almost always be something that can be intercepted at the front, given sufficient speed.
  
• The opponent's shot is short, but still not reachable by the woman. She rotates to the side/back so that you can hit (and kill any replies).

So, in other words, the reasons to go the front as the man in mixed doubles are the same as in level doubles. Because it is contrary to your preferred formation in a generic attacking scenario, you just don't do it quite as often.

Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply! I'm trying to get me and my partner to that level where we could subconsciously determine if the man could move up to the front court without much communication. The problem is that we prefer a fixed formation so it's hard for the woman to just simply rotate to backcourt at will unless she herself wants to move back. But I guess that comes with more familiarization with my partner and more experience playing together overall. Again, thank you so much!

 

[Rob3rt]

Not exactly your situation but very similar actually:

When my Mixed partner doesn't have a strong backcourt game, I sometimes run into this situation. Opponent plays a short serve, I try to kill it. Few outcomes here, either I successfully kill it or play a sufficient enough push or drive that I can kill the reply. BUT if the opponents somehow manage to play a decent lift and put my Mixed partner in the backcourt, we are pretty much screwed because they keep on putting pressure on her with flat lifts until they can kill the weak drop shot. Moving to the front after a drop shot that is not great is very difficult. Don't know what to do here to get us back in the game. I'm not good enough to intercept flat lifts.

 

[Justin N.]

Not exactly your situation but very similar actually:

When my Mixed partner doesn't have a strong backcourt game, I sometimes run into this situation. Opponent plays a short serve, I try to kill it. Few outcomes here, either I successfully kill it or play a sufficient enough push or drive that I can kill the reply. BUT if the opponents somehow manage to play a decent lift and put my Mixed partner in the backcourt, we are pretty much screwed because they keep on putting pressure on her with flat lifts until they can kill the weak drop shot. Moving to the front after a drop shot that is not great is very difficult. Don't know what to do here to get us back in the game. I'm not good enough to intercept flat lifts.

Ah, yes. I run into this situation a lot of times too. Unless your female partner is decent at moving to the backcourt, I'm afraid it's the male partner's job to move back to return that lift while the female stays either side-side or moves to the front. One of the many curses of mixed doubles I'm afraid haha. Good workout for your stamina and footwork though lol

 

[MSeeley]

As an elaboration on when to move in, I believe there are two situations where you choose to move in (sometimes you have to e.g. your partner is at the back). I am talking about when you CHOOSE to move in:
1. as already mentioned by @phihag you may be considerably faster than your partner, and it makes sense for you to come in an destroy to finish the point, but it must only be when you are sure you will kill it.
2. the primary case in mixed doubles is when the man gets a short lift in either tramline. If he chooses to smash powerfully straight, he should be looking to come in and finish off any shot that comes onto his side with powerful straight shots. If the lift was short, the lady should be covering the drive to the other side (meaning they stand slightly backwards from the net to cut out anything fast). In this situation, if the opponent did manage to flick a good lift cross court, the man must still cover that i.e. this is about the man moving in, NOT the girl moving out.

To fix the other situation presented by @Rob3rt - you must either avoid this situation by not playing the kill, or your partner must come forwards even though her shots are weak. To expand:
If there is no way your partner can play a reasonable shot from the back, then you shouldn't be risking the kill at the front. Your primary concern is not to kill the shuttle, but to cover the court. So be less adventurous, be more responsible and work harder to cover the court rather than attempt kills that leave you out of position.
If your partner can play a reasonable fast drop shot, she should play the drop shot fast towards the middle (but ideally still straight). It doesn't have to be amazingly steep - fast and flat is ok. She then needs to get going forwards and you need to cover the midcourt and the rearcourt. Its not easy when the drop shot isn't great, but it is possible with practice.

Good luck!

 

[Rob3rt]

As an elaboration on when to move in, I believe there are two situations where you choose to move in (sometimes you have to e.g. your partner is at the back). I am talking about when you CHOOSE to move in:
1. as already mentioned by @phihag you may be considerably faster than your partner, and it makes sense for you to come in an destroy to finish the point, but it must only be when you are sure you will kill it.
2. the primary case in mixed doubles is when the man gets a short lift in either tramline. If he chooses to smash powerfully straight, he should be looking to come in and finish off any shot that comes onto his side with powerful straight shots. If the lift was short, the lady should be covering the drive to the other side (meaning they stand slightly backwards from the net to cut out anything fast). In this situation, if the opponent did manage to flick a good lift cross court, the man must still cover that i.e. this is about the man moving in, NOT the girl moving out.

To fix the other situation presented by @Rob3rt - you must either avoid this situation by not playing the kill, or your partner must come forwards even though her shots are weak. To expand:
If there is no way your partner can play a reasonable shot from the back, then you shouldn't be risking the kill at the front. Your primary concern is not to kill the shuttle, but to cover the court. So be less adventurous, be more responsible and work harder to cover the court rather than attempt kills that leave you out of position.
If your partner can play a reasonable fast drop shot, she should play the drop shot fast towards the middle (but ideally still straight). It doesn't have to be amazingly steep - fast and flat is ok. She then needs to get going forwards and you need to cover the midcourt and the rearcourt. Its not easy when the drop shot isn't great, but it is possible with practice.

Good luck!

I get what you‘re saying, but if I stop putting sufficient pressure on the low serves the opponent will smash or drive at my Mixed partner, which is not preferably either, imo. So you‘re saying that when I play a push or drive and they lift it, I still have to rush backwards and take it and my partner will cover the net?

 

[MSeeley]

I get what you‘re saying, but if I stop putting sufficient pressure on the low serves the opponent will smash or drive at my Mixed partner, which is not preferably either, imo. So you‘re saying that when I play a push or drive and they lift it, I still have to rush backwards and take it and my partner will cover the net?

You can say what you want about "putting pressure on low serves" - but attempting and failing a kill isn't putting pressure on anyone except yourself. You would be better off rushing forwards and playing a gentle push to the midcourt or a net shot, allowing you sufficient time to move to the back. It is also my expectation that you can play a well placed push, drive or net shot, without having to rush the net, and therefore not have them smash at your partner... so its not "rush the net or they smash at my partner" - there is plenty of other middle ground.

But regardless you are absolutely correct - you should play your shot and immediately move backwards to the midcourt and your partner moves in. You should be able to play your shot with sufficient quality that the opponent is not able to hit forcefully downwards (ideally they are playing at least slightly upwards). The same is true if you decide to play a net shot return - you should touch the shuttle and already be moving backwards to take the back court. Partner moves in. This takes real coordination of the pairing. Its not hard, but your partner must trust that you'll play a sensible shot, and you must be FAST to move backwards. This is distinctly different to mens doubles where you could rush the net and then leave your partner to mop up the rest of the rally.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[phihag]

BUT if the opponents somehow manage to play a decent lift and put my Mixed partner in the backcourt, we are pretty much screwed because they keep on putting pressure on her with flat lifts until they can kill the weak drop shot.

If all else fails, can't your partner play a flat lift to the opposing woman, especially if it's longline?

Then your opponents are facing the same predicament that you are. If you win the rally, great! If they win, note down what they did, and do that next time.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but doesn't this situation happen regularly for you? If the opponents detect that you don't have a good solution for it, they would be stupid not to send 100% of serves to the woman to the back, wouldn't they?

 

[Rob3rt]

But regardless you are absolutely correct - you should play your shot and immediately move backwards to the midcourt and your partner moves in. You should be able to play your shot with sufficient quality that the opponent is not able to hit forcefully downwards (ideally they are playing at least slightly upwards). The same is true if you decide to play a net shot return - you should touch the shuttle and already be moving backwards to take the back court. Partner moves in. This takes real coordination of the pairing. Its not hard, but your partner must trust that you'll play a sensible shot, and you must be FAST to move backwards. This is distinctly different to mens doubles where you could rush the net and then leave your partner to mop up the rest of the rally.

I hope that makes sense.

That's what I dislike about Mixed. When I play a net shot as a short serve return and move back the female opponent is standing at the net waiting for the reply. Playing right into her hands, because she's there early and my partner has to move in. On the other hand if I stay, I will kill every bad net shot or push it to the midcourt. I think this is the proper way to play if you have a capable Mixed lady at your side. Of course it's better to rush to the back if your partner cannot put pressure from the back at all.

If all else fails, can't your partner play a flat lift to the opposing woman, especially if it's longline?

The male opponent will be there and smashing it, unless it's very flat and the female opponent is trying to take it.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but doesn't this situation happen regularly for you? If the opponents detect that you don't have a good solution for it, they would be stupid not to send 100% of serves to the woman to the back, wouldn't they?

I'm not talking about the serves to the woman, but the third shot. I'm wondering too, but they very rarely lift the shot. The combinations I'm playing at tournaments are so used to the woman staying at the net. They play a net shot back and I'm there killing it or playing a net tumbler. Works a treat, because I'm better at the net than my Mixed partners because it's my strength. Even in level doubles I'm the "net player". So I mostly play level doubles with my Mixed partners. Only a few very tactical and aware opponents notice this and keep on lifting. I have to practice rotation and intercepting more for that, I think.

 

[MSeeley]

That's what I dislike about Mixed. When I play a net shot as a short serve return and move back the female opponent is standing at the net waiting for the reply. Playing right into her hands, because she's there early and my partner has to move in. On the other hand if I stay, I will kill every bad net shot or push it to the midcourt. I think this is the proper way to play if you have a capable Mixed lady at your side. Of course it's better to rush to the back if your partner cannot put pressure from the back at all.

This may be your experience, but it doesn't stack up to me. And classifying this as a problem of "mixed" seems a bit harsh - there are plenty of mens doubles players I can't trust at the back because their attack is hopeless. Similarly there are plenty of ladies that can easily control the back of the court.

If I'd played a net shot return in mixed:
1. I didn't play it to the waiting lady. She will have to move to get the shuttle and she won't be taking it early unless I played a pathetic shot. This isn't about the lady being there already, its a shot choice OR a shot quality problem. You make it sound like she knows what shot I will play and is in prime position to kill it. She doesn't. She doesn't know if I will block, push, drive, straight, cross court or middle.
2. My partner is already well placed near the net, and is moving in as I play the shot, knowing that I am going to hit a shot and then move out... so i wouldn't expect her to be late to any net reply from the other lady. She will have as much time as the waiting lady to see what I do and cover the court appropriately. And that's not even taking into account that my choice of shot will make it harder or easier for my lady to cover the shot: if I play cross court to the side my lady is on, she won't have to move far. If I play to the middle of the net she will be in prime position to kill any net shot, if I play it straight to my side I may be making it more difficult for her. There are lots of options, but the key is your partner must be on the way forwards before you've finished playing your shot.

So if the the opposing female was indeed standing at the net waiting for the reply, I would push it slightly past her into the midcourt.
If the opposing male is able to take that push very early, then I can simply play a fast drive to the back corner instead with a slight hold and hit, particularly if I turn the racket and hit a cross court drive. This works in my estimation because:

• No female can cover the front court and the midcourt in both tramlines in a devastating attacking fashion
• No male can cover the midcourt and the rear court in both tramlines in a devastating attacking fashion

These are particularly true when the opponent doesn't know what shot you are going to hit, due to good variety of shot making and technique. I have never seen a match in which there wasn't a safe shot to play, although it depends on your shot quality and movement to be able to execute the shot.

So to take a look at your situation it seems you have two options:
1. attack the net and stay in. It would definitely work better than now if your partner were better at the back, but seeing as you don't we almost guaruntee you will lose these points once your opponents realise you don't cover the back, unless you manage to successfully kill most of the serves. This would be therefore a good option only if you are winning the majority of these points and only losing 1 or 2. Bear in mind when I'm playing mixed doubles (club level, county level etc doesn't matter) I love to see the man do what you're suggesting - its then so easy to pick on his lady and win the point. Even if he's playing with a really good lady, they are in the wrong position and I can prevent them rotating with my shot choice. One particular pair I know have done very well at some silver tournaments and their coach is always having a go at them for being in the wrong position. The girls a national standard singles player so she's not weak from the back, but by comparison to her partner she might as well be. But then again it works well for some international pairs particularly if the man is very devastating and tall (e.g. I am remembering Fischer-Nielson and Pederson - the Danes did this sometimes because Joachim was very fast at the front), and it doesn't work at all for others.
2. attack the net more conservatively and cover the midcourt and rearcourt. The risk here is that 1. your shot won't be good enough to start the rally safely and 2. your partner may not move in quickly enough to force the opponent to lift or drive the shuttle. If you do it well, you'll be in a good position from the start of the rally, and if you do it badly you are going to get caught in transition (i.e. the shuttle will arrive before you and partner are ready).

The choice is yours - there are no other options. You need to weigh up the risk and reward of each decision and decide which is best for you. You will win points and lose points as a result of each. In the long run (as in over the next few years), option 1 will cause more problems than option 2. If you learn to do option 2 properly with the partner, you become a nightmare to play against. If you stick with option 1, you will eventually have to transition to option 2 anyway, unless you find a good partner that likes this style.

I personally think the best option is to use option 2, and throw in option 1 once or twice a match to keep them guessing. Then again there may be other options e.g. play your shot then attack side by side with your partner - kill anything that comes your side, but still be in a position to cover both lifts, and your partner has to cover all drives and pushes to her side... Lots of options!

 

[DarkHiatus]

That's what I dislike about Mixed. When I play a net shot as a short serve return and move back the female opponent is standing at the net waiting for the reply. Playing right into her hands, because she's there early and my partner has to move in. On the other hand if I stay, I will kill every bad net shot or push it to the midcourt. I think this is the proper way to play if you have a capable Mixed lady at your side. Of course it's better to rush to the back if your partner cannot put pressure from the back at all.



The male opponent will be there and smashing it, unless it's very flat and the female opponent is trying to take it.



I'm not talking about the serves to the woman, but the third shot. I'm wondering too, but they very rarely lift the shot. The combinations I'm playing at tournaments are so used to the woman staying at the net. They play a net shot back and I'm there killing it or playing a net tumbler. Works a treat, because I'm better at the net than my Mixed partners because it's my strength. Even in level doubles I'm the "net player". So I mostly play level doubles with my Mixed partners. Only a few very tactical and aware opponents notice this and keep on lifting. I have to practice rotation and intercepting more for that, I think.

I play quite a bit of mixed and my experience is pretty much as @MSeeley describes, even though I tend to play front in an MD pairing.

If I receive serve and choose to play a net shot, I move back immediately after playing the shot as my partner moves in. Since she is able to see the shot I have played, and assuming it is good quality, she is on equal footing to the opposition receiver, and I have seen some on my partners kill a return tumble if the opposition attempts it.

In such a scenario, my opponents MUST receive the shuttle lower, because I have forced myself to cover the rear court lift, which if flat is going to mean a weak response from me.

My typical reason to apologise to my partner is my opponent serves to me standing in the backhand corner, I play a tight net to the backhand side, and immediately move back. Unfortunately, unless my net shot is near perfect or my opponent is asleep, my opponent plays a crosscourt lift and now I need to run to the forehand rear court, often very deep/late.

It’s an interesting scenario because it doesn’t happen in MD as you mentioned, but in XD I often play that net shot without sufficient variation/shot quality and get punished for it!

In general though, in XD if I move forward, I have full expectation that I’ll need to move back extremely quickly if it comes back, so I will only move forward where it’s probable that the reply will be weak. My partner generally looks to cover the mid court and wide forecourt at this point - almost like a sides formation but pushed forward attacking. The rear court is still my responsibility.

 

[Z-Force III]

I normally take the front court in XD, when I attack aggressive the serve an wait for the weak reply. If I play a netshot, it should be very tight and must fall close to the net, I let my female partner move in and I come back. If my aggressive attack of the serve got neutralized with a lift to my lady, my lady should take the rear court for not too long. IMO the best option for a rotation here is the cross court clear of the lady. A mixed doubles lady without a decent cross court clear is IMO not a mixed doubles lady, because it is a key element to counter the pushing lady to the back and pulling male to the front. If my lady decides to attack I also move in to the front, but stay more midcourt to help and get a short lift to the other side. My female partner attacks more crosscourt than straight and can anticipate very well, which also helps us with the rotation. Normally we face the scenario that lady got pinned at the back court, opponents committed to the side, to finish the drop, by the lady and the straight clear of the lady by the male. So my female partner helps our rotation with a cross court clear or attacking more cross court. I don't know the exact englisch word for that what we play. Malay attack/wide attack? For me very important as well that a mixed doubles lady must have good reading skills. IMO there are several situations were you can't prevent that your lady is at the back. Swip serve to the lady, several attacking patterns of the opponent, which make it hard to for the male to take the back and play offensive shot with good quality. FME XD is the most tactical doubles and require very decent communication between both. If I'm at the back we attack more straight and we stand more in a tunnel.

 

[Borkya]

Ah! Finally a problem in my wheelhouse!

While everyone else can give you good advice on tactics, I can tell you why your partner might be more hesitant in going back. For women players there is more than just "tactics" going on in our brain and a large part of your female partners playing style is actually based on the reaction from other fellas in your club. The most common criticism to a female player from her male fella is "Don't go back." It's very frustrating as a female player since I KNOW that is wrong, but many fellas don't/can't play mixed doubles at the higher level and prefer to just flail freely around the back of the court without worrying about their partner getting in the way. So when they miss a shot, or when the woman needs to go back (say, for defense) and then leaves part of the net open for her fella to cover but he doesn't because he thinks the front of the net is the females domain, then the guy always criticizes the woman for it. It's very frustrating from the female POV.

The other day I played with a intermediate level fella and he said "The whole front of the net is your and the whole back of the net is mine." I openly laughed at him and said "that is soooooo wrong" but only because I have years of coaching and playing with higher level fellas who know that a woman partner needs to be a more equal player and not just hide at the net. If I didn't have my high level partners constantly telling me to go back when they go forward, or for defense, or whatever, even I would fall into the trap of standing at the front since the large majority of female players play like that and the large majority of fellas prefer the woman to play like that.

So it's gonna take your female partner some time to adjust to a new way of playing. My coach will always use his racket as an example and say we need to rotate like the head and handle of the racket. If the head is forward then the handle is back, and when the handle is forward the head is back, and if the head is to the left, the handle is to the right etc. Aka: the head and handle can never be in the same spot. For a visual thinker like me, that helps a lot (and yes, he is talking about just rotation on the court, not positions for all tactics and game play!)

Of course once a woman is in the back, say, covering the rear because you have gone to the front for tactical reason, she has to work to get back to the front quickly and you, as her partner, can help her by going back yourself. All mixed doubles teams know that while the woman has to cover the back, it is a weaker position for the team to be in. So don't just hang out covering the front of the net like you might in mens doubles. She will probably be playing shots from the back that will allow some rotation from both of you so move back so she can move up. (Sometimes my fella leaves me high and dry in the rear because they forget mixed doubles and go into "men's doubles" mode of thinking, haha).

A good way to get her out of the front of court habit is to play a few games men's doubles style with her standing at the rear when you serve. You might lose those games if her rear court game isn't that strong, but some women get stuck into a "must stick to the front" kinda mindset and a few games of her playing the rear can break that.






(P.S. I hope you all noticed "my fella" and "fella" wording choice. It's ridiculous right? So is saying "my lady" or "lady partner." We are female/women partners. Or if you say "In XD blah...blah..blah" you just need to say "partner" as everyone knows you are the guy and therefore the partner is obviously female so you don't need to specify. You don't refer to your MD partner as "my fella" so why would you say that about your female partner? I know not everyone here is a native English speakers so just a little sensitivity English class to help you show respect to the female players in your lives. )

 

[Z-Force III]

@Borkya is really spot-on.

Alot males teach her female partner alot in the net and intercept area, but forget that if you don't give your partner in training chances to play and learn the rear and also learn good solutions from the rear. It's kinda amuse me on my opponents, when this lady-front, fella-back system with a crowbar cause inefficient positionings and rotations during a fast and flat game. IMO there are moments, where a male needs to go to the front and a woman must take the back. The key is to get out of these formations with clever play. A lot males don't trust their female partner and keep she small with this fixed positioning. The roles are clear in XD, but it makes everything easier versus decent opponents, when you don't need the crowbar in designing a game to take always the back and the femal always the front. Give much more creative chances to play and you overcome the moments of moving.

I agree that if you want a longterm XD partnership, trust in your partner, seeing everybody equal even if the areas of skills and strength are different and give the female chances to grow. I have often seen the blame of the lady of my opponents. And mostly it's there front-back positioning and the wrong shots of the males which make the female struggle.

I did with my partner a trust and understanding each role exercise and played the role of the lady, and she the role of the male. It was very beneficial to get insights for each other.

 

[MSeeley]

(P.S. I hope you all noticed "my fella" and "fella" wording choice. It's ridiculous right? So is saying "my lady" or "lady partner." We are female/women partners. Or if you say "In XD blah...blah..blah" you just need to say "partner" as everyone knows you are the guy and therefore the partner is obviously female so you don't need to specify. You don't refer to your MD partner as "my fella" so why would you say that about your female partner? I know not everyone here is a native English speakers so just a little sensitivity English class to help you show respect to the female players in your lives. )

I really liked your post, but I have got to query whatever point you are making here. I'm born and bred in the UK, and played the game from a young age first in small clubs going up to larger and higher level clubs. In the UK, the term "lady" is far more polite that saying "woman" or "female" as those are descriptive only. The phrase "lady" has hints and suggestions of elegance, beauty, and respect. It is the formal and polite way of referring to a woman. Contrast this to "fella" which is colloquial and is used predominantly by girlfriends referring to boyfriends in a form of slang that is not common (i.e. not a term of respect).

In the UK, we have mens doubles, mixed doubles and the phrase "ladies doubles" is used interchangeably with "women's doubles". Both are equally common and are both used when organising official badminton england tournaments. When you speak to UK club players, you would refer to your "partner" in level doubles (either mens doubles or womens/ladies doubles), and the "man" and the "lady" in mixed doubles. I won't deny that referring to the "woman" in mixed is common too, but that is actually less respectful than saying "lady" where i'm from.

So can I just check are you reading the word "lady" to mean something other than what it means in native english speaking countries? Or are you saying that we shouldn't refer to women with a label of respect?

I hope this post doesn't come across as too much of a rant - but help me understand!

In reference to the men telling women to "stay at the net" - it's unfortunately too true at a lower club level, but fortunately not once you can join the better clubs. My biggest regret is the number of women and especially girls who try the sport and are put off by this appalling behaviour and tactical stupidity I left those clubs behind many years ago and beginners/intermediates are encouraged to play properly.

 

[DarkHiatus]

I really liked your post, but I have got to query whatever point you are making here. I'm born and bread in the UK, and played the game from a young age first in small clubs going up to larger and higher level clubs. In the UK, the term "lady" is far more polite that saying "woman" or "female" as those are descriptive only. The phrase "lady" has hints and suggestions of elegance, beauty, and respect. It is the formal and polite way of referring to a woman. Contrast this to "fella" which is colloquial and is used predominantly by girlfriends referring to boyfriends in a form of slang that is not common (i.e. not a term of respect).

In the UK, we have mens doubles, mixed doubles and the phrase "ladies doubles" is used interchangeably with "women's doubles". Both are equally common and are both used when organising official badminton england tournaments. When you speak to UK club players, you would refer to your "partner" in level doubles (either mens doubles or womens/ladies doubles), and the "man" and the "lady" in mixed doubles. I won't deny that referring to the "woman" in mixed is common too, but that is actually less respectful than saying "lady" where i'm from.

So can I just check are you reading the word "lady" to mean something other than what it means in native english speaking countries? Or are you saying that we shouldn't refer to women with a label of respect?

I hope this post doesn't come across as too much of a rant - but help me understand!

In reference to the men telling women to "stay at the net" - it's unfortunately too true at a lower club level, but fortunately not once you can join the better clubs. My biggest regret is the number of women and especially girls who try the sport and are put off by this appalling behaviour and tactical stupidity I left those clubs behind many years ago and beginners/intermediates are encouraged to play properly.

I was going to say the exact thing that you’ve written better than I would have. Ladies’ Doubles may never be abbreviated to LD instead of WD, but it has no disrespectful connotations in Scotland, North England, or South England where I’ve regularly played.

‘gal’ (or in Scottish, ‘lass/lassie’) would be much more akin to ‘fella’. There are also many older players (both male and female) who will refer to younger players as ‘love’ or ‘dear’ which is often seen as disrespectful by younger folk but it is not seen as offensive by the elder generation unless you point it out to them that you find it patronising/dismissive.

 

[Z-Force III]

You really debate about if using "Lady" as a respectful/disrepectful form? Oh, dear this Gender **** is everywhere.

 

[MSeeley]

You really debate about if using "Lady" as a respectful/disrepectful form? Oh, dear this Gender **** is everywhere.

I know, I could hardly believe it as I wrote my own post. Not sure if I am making it worse or better by responding. Sigh... I may have made the wrong choice, but hopefully we can get back to the badminton!

 

[Borkya]

In sports, using the word "lady" is seen is derogatory and condescending. Lady is seen as an old fashioned word, meaning a woman of high class or social standing. In the context of gentlemen and ladies then lady of course is fine. But in the context of sports, it puts women in a weaker standing and implies they should act like a high class polite women, and implies they are weaker and need to be protected.

And it's not just me, here's an article about sports in Olympics as some are referred to as "women's" sports while a few are still called "ladies" (but there is a push to change those):

"A lady, according to the dictionary definition, is “a woman of superior social position,” “a woman of refinement and gentle manners,” or a “wife” or “girlfriend,” and it also an oft-used “courteous reference” to a woman, as in, “show the lady to a seat.” A “woman,” meanwhile, is “an adult female person.”

It’s pretty much a given at this point that using “lady” — sometimes used interchangeably with “woman” — is an old-school term that veers into sexist territory, except when it’s in the powerfully ironic hands of, say, Lady Gaga."

And the dictionary weighs in on it too. Here's the entry from the Merriam Webster dictionary about which word to use:
"Lady prefixed to names of vocations as a mark of sex (lady doctor, author, clerk, &c.) is a cumbrous substitution for a feminine designation, which should be preferred when it exists or can be made; in default of that, woman or female would be better than lady..."

You really debate about if using "Lady" as a respectful/disrepectful form? Oh, dear this Gender **** is everywhere.

Come on, really? Are you so entitled to think that "the way I've always spoke is fine and I don't need to change anything?" Is it so hard to change a word in your vocabulary from "lady" to "woman." It's free to change and doesn't hurt you or anyone else for you to say a different word, and it shows respect to half the world's population. Why is that so ridiculous to talk about?

I know, I could hardly believe it as I wrote my own post. Not sure if I am making it worse or better by responding. Sigh... I may have made the wrong choice, but hopefully we can get back to the badminton!

I think it's good to ask questions about it if you have a different opinion/experience about it, and find out what other people think. My 80-year-old dad doesn't understand "what's so offensive about calling someone 'colored'" but even he knows not to call black people that anymore, haha. Language changes, and our usage of language changes and things that were once okay, and perhaps polite, no longer are (or are polite in only specific circumstances and not all the time.)

I don't think your all sexist misogynist a-holes or anything, haha. Just pointing out you are using an old fashioned term that is getting more outdated and offensive in the sports word. And like I said in the original post, as many people here aren't native speakers, I want to point it out so people don't pick up bad habits or start using old fashioned English. I am an English teacher for non-native English speakers so just doing my job.