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The Walkover & Withdrawal issue - rights and wrongs

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by cobalt, Sep 24, 2011.

  1. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    But one aspect I hink that people tend to forget when discussing these matches/issues is that it is also a DISADVANTAGE for the Chineese players when drawn against eachother! Even if they can "choose" what player to go trough to their next round this means they will also HAVE to ELIMINATE one player and only get one chance instead of two in the next round, putting all eggs in one basket so to say.. It would in most cases probably be more beneficial for them to NOT be drawn against eachother so they can eliminate the oppostion on the other half of the draw instead...

    A semi with CL vs. Lee Chong Wei on the upper half and LD vs. Jan O Jorgensen or Ueda on the bottom half, would not neccessarily be a BETTER thing for Lee Chong Wei's chances of clinching the JO title..
     
    #81 twobeer, Sep 28, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2011
  2. thunder.tw

    thunder.tw Regular Member

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    It's not a disadvantage at all. The logic behind this is silly. Having the option of determining the outcome of a match is a huge advantage. You are focused on whether the outcome of the draw is favorable to other players (in your example LCW), who cares that's not the point.

    The point is whoever gets to the finals gets there because they earned it. The problem with the match fixing that is going on isn't that it's bad for LCW. The problem is that it is bad for FANS and for the sport of badminton. This isn't about who wins the event, it's about the quality of the event and the matches in the event. Often the best three matches in the events are the two semi final matches and the final and in many cases the semi-finals are better than the final. So what's so great about having one of the semi-finals being a W.O. or a dog and pony show? And, in the worst case the quality of the final gets effected because you have one player well rested against another player who had to survive a 3 game 1 hour and 45 min marathon.

    Your logic is goofy, you are focused trying to pick winners. This issue isn't about giving LCW a better chance at winning. It's about the quality of the game.
     
  3. Chayady

    Chayady Regular Member

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    As i mention before in previous post, this thread is under Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating.
    We should discuss about the law of badminton/rules of game as cobalt keep trying to get us in.
    Which section/point in law of badminton that it breach? (http://www.bwfbadminton.org/page.aspx?id=14915)
    What are possible argument that can/will be use by China team to defend their act?
    Is there any other case (in other sport) that has a similarity that we can use to study?

    We can make this thing big, try to get bwf to hear us (badminton lover) that we don't like this kind of
    act. It already brings badminton into disrepute. I don't want that one day IOC decide that badminton will not be included in Olimpic because of this disrepute.
     
  4. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    Some excellent points made by thunder.tw here!! :) He has cut much to the core of the matter. I'd like to add: its also about the reputation of the game in the eyes of the rest of the world. If BWF does not take some very hard decisions soon, it will make badminton the laughing stock of professionally-run games.
     
  5. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    No, It is you who are being silly, if you disregard the dissadvantage to have to play a teammate who reads eachothers games close to 100% and to exclude the possibility of getting two players trough to the next round. I would say currently LD,CL, and CJ are better than ALL players (excluding LCW) that was placed in the top-half in JO.. So you are just being silly if you don't regard that draw as a dissadvantage, seen from a Chineese perspective..

    BTW, you always have the option of controlling the outcome of a match.. if you are good enough...

    I agree that WOs are not what we fans want... But I think you are exhaggerating how much the "fans" really looks forward to a team "internal" semi anyway... To me it seems more like the ones that are "pissed" that LCW didn't win wine about it and focuses on the WO rather than the fact that a) the singles final was great badminton b) CL spent more time on court in JO than LCW despite the WO! c) LCW was not in his greatest form.

    As a fan I looked at it this way.. LD and LCW almost always comes up against eachother in all tournaments.. and frankly I thought it was more enjoyable to watch something "different" in this JO final.. So CL vs. LCW was a great final matchup. I would not be so excited to watch a sparring match (how many times do you think LD and CL plays eachother on a day-to-day basis).. They know eachother too well, and with no coaching there will be even less "tactical" issues. Quite a boring matchup anyway for fans imop.

    Your logic is gooofy.. By forcing LD to play with a minor injury would not raise the quality of the game at all.
     
  6. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    I cannot agree with your arguments, Twobeer. I don't think the win/lost of LCW has something to do with the protest we have here. There have been too much tricks played by CHN team lately ; like someone said above, it is now a pattern which we can forecast.
    Another point is matches between fellows from the same country are not necessarily a bore. The final in the 08OLY between ZN and XXF was a thriller, for example. (One of the best match I have seen).
    One of the thing that infuriates many, or at least myself, is that if LD (to take him) does not want to play all the way to the final, why does he come to the tourney? He should stay at home and give room to players he beat in the first rounds.
     
  7. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    Recent case in point: Markis Kido playing at the Japan Open while carrying over a fever from the night before. He and Hendra finally went down in flames to their own countrymen (and Kido's brother, no less!!) but I didn't even see a "retired" next to the scoreline; much less "walkover." And who was the other player who played with the other hand when his/her right hand was injured?

    In the round of 16 at the same tournament, CSC retired halfway through the second game with a foot injury, and JJS/YYS also retired halfway through the second game against the Chinese MD pair because of injury.

    What is common so far is that they all gave it their best right up till the moment they knew they could not go on without major injury risk. They didn't care who was on the other side of the net. And they were not ordered by their coaches to walk away.

    Later in the day of the round of 16, LD spoke to the press about how he was "careless" in the second game against LHI, but there was no mention yet about any possible niggles he may be having. 3 days later, right at the predicted moment, he gives his compatriot a walkover; the toe injury gets bad enough at just the right moment. :D

    At the same event in the Semi-finals, I did see 2 "walkover" results: Wang Yihan v/s Liu Xin, and Chen Long v/s Lin Dan. How can Chinese team injuries always get unbearable only when the "injured" player has to play against a compatriot?
     
  8. thunder.tw

    thunder.tw Regular Member

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    Bull$hit, it's not a disadvantage, it is the draw playing out following it's normal course. There is nothing about that occurring that is unique to China. Any team that has an enter ranked number 1 and number 4 or ranked 2 and 3 is susceptible to this occurring. Why the hell do we need to see this from a Chinese perspective? It can happen to any team. The only difference is that apparently from the Chinese perspective it is an opportunity to screw with the draw. You've stopped being silly and have now crossed into the realm of stupidity.

    In the context of this discussion what this this even mean. Now you're just babbling .

    Never made any comment about fan anticipation of an 'internal' semi final. I said that the best 3 matches in a competition are usually the 2 semi finals and the final. Besides your point is silly. Are you really going to argue that nobody cared to see the number 1 and number 4 player play? Just because they are from the same country? Again, stupid. Your are blinded by flags. I'm a fan of the game not of flags.

    Personally I don't give a crap about LCW winning or losing. And I really wouldn't care if this WO occurred in isolation. But, it hasn't. It's something that occurs AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN. It makes a mockery of the sport.

    Well, as a fan of the sport and not like you, merely a fan of China. I want to see the top two players meet as often as possible. Especially when one player is so dominant in the head to head match up. It's interesting to see if this will be the time LCW can break through and it adds to the drama. There's nothing wrong with others players making the final as long as they earn it.

    Minor injury... bull$hit. As the saying goes fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on you. But, it's not twice or three time this has happened now is it? It's something that is taking place on a regular basis.

    But I really don't think you believe this is just an injury either. I think you know perfectly well what's going on but I suppose you have a job to do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party

    Out of curiosity, what's your rate?
     
    #88 thunder.tw, Sep 29, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2011
  9. Chayady

    Chayady Regular Member

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    Her name is Greysia Polii playing in WD. What a girl, she is surely a true sportswomen, above an athelete.Sportsmen has a dignity, while athelete is just a human doing sport (IMHO)
     
  10. Chayady

    Chayady Regular Member

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    Your argument show how low your knowledge about basic sport law.
    In sports the outcome of the match has to come from the skill of the player.
    In basic law it stated that player must give their maximum effort to win the game.
    And i don;t understand what do you mean by controlling the outcome of the game.
    The game/match is decided by the skill of the player. If you are good enough you should win the game (not wo or retired).
     
  11. Yoppy

    Yoppy Regular Member

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    Twobeer needs three beer now :)
     
  12. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    Very well said, Sir! :)
     
  13. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    There is no "law" that the player must give maximum effort.. I've sse plenty of games from Taufik etc. Where they are not giving their 100%... In most cases the top pros intentionally play well below maximum, especially in earlire rounds to conserver energy against players they can beat eaailly without going max..

    If a player do not want to win it doesn't really make sense for him to compete (morally).. But it ridicilous to even think that a player HAVE to go "all in" all the time..
     
  14. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    Its Friday :) I am going for it :D
     
  15. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    Sorry.. But, I feel certain that what you say is utterly nonsense! If you let LYB choose in JO draw if he wants CL on the upper LCW half and LD on the lower or both CL and LD on the lower half.. He would tell you he would rather have CL on the opposite half. If you do not think this is true, I think you should read up a bit on the complaints from team China when BWF changed the country separation rules of the draws..

    ? ookay...

    Usually that is the point of an elimination tournament..

    It is sad that you are putting words in my mouth that I do not say, and then call them silly :) . Of course many people want to watch LD vs. CL. What I said is that that most fans really does not regard that match as the killer match some of the die hard LCW fanatics seem to think it is, and that most probably rather would have WCH vs. CL and Gade Vs. LD as the two semis.. If you are a fan of the game not the flags you do not think a team-match (between friends) are as intersting as a match where players fight someone seen as an adversary and not a team-mate..

    I think it is ridicilous to say that CL didnt "earn" to be in the final of JO, just because he got a WO. This is just bias talking.. If Gade got injured in the other Semi, and LCW got a WO, he would not have "earned it" as he got an easy final? Your logic is flawed my friend. Are you trying to convince me that LCW would have played so much better if he also got WO in semis, or that CL would be significantly weaker by playing a match with a toe injured LD, I do not find anything that would point to that.

    And if you are a true fan of badminton as you say, you should really appreciate the final game, and the tournament in whole.. But to me it sounds more like you are pissed that China dominates to much, and seeks justification for your disslike of their strength.

    Your tone is pretty agressive, and dissrespectful, when we trying to post our views in a civiliced forum.. I hope we all have in common the love for badminton.. I don't think there is a need to drag this down to personal insults and attacks.. I hope we can stick to the issues, instead of imature namecalling.
     
  16. Chayady

    Chayady Regular Member

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    You are not just have a low knowledge of basic law of sport but also super lazy.
    Here is the Player's code of conduct for you to read and understand. (http://www.bwfbadminton.org/file_download.aspx?id=35803)
    Can you show me which section that govern the maximum effort?
     
  17. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    Are you referring to the below?

    4.5 Failure to use best efforts
    Not using one’s best efforts to win a match.

    Not sure if it's a rules book. But looks/sounds really strange (and even silly) to put something like this that can't possibly be enforced in it.

    I'm not sure whether one would conserve more energy by playing his best (thus finishing his match quicker), or not putting in his 100% effort (thus possibly taking him longer to finish). Nevertheless, energy conversation should cross every competitor's mind, if they've any intent to last till the end.
     
  18. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    You are right, I was lazy expressing my self.. What I meant was that there are no enforcable rule, and there really is no way to objectively measure "best effort".. Of course BWF and other organisations put these kind of conduct rules int so they can ban players if they can PROOVE there is thrown game etc.. But there is of course no way of enforing a law about "maximum" effort.. How can you proove that Gade made his best effort against LCW?, and that LCW really played his maximum against CL?.. Maybe he was holding back a little because of his injury? Then it would be "match fixing" as he didn't give it the 100% maximum posible, and risk to prolong the injury?Let me ask you this.. if JO this year was a OG final.. Do you still think LCW would have lost the game to CL??
     
    #98 twobeer, Oct 1, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2011
  19. pjswift

    pjswift Regular Member

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  20. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    And your view is that LYB not wanted that draw in INA/AE ??? Because LCW won and the chineese players did not do well in MS??? What is your point? That the LCW wins means LYB didnt want CL on his half before the tournament? I am very confused about your logic..It must be all my beers :)

    Regardless of beers, but I do recognize the difference in LCWs form in INA/AE as well. Maybe LCWs 21-11, 21-7 against Gade in INA and his 21-18 in the THIRD against Tago this JO, tells you something about his form?
     
    #100 twobeer, Oct 1, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2011

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