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  1. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by badmonte
    Mag and Dill:
    If you were running a tournament how would you handle the dispute? The rule says it has to be done before the next point is played. That did not happen. A point was played. So have to rule on it. The rule book does not say you have to ask, period. If you say that and rule to replay from the point of set 14-14, you are going against the rules. If you say the needed to ask, again you are adding something that is not in the rule book. It may not be great sportsmanship, but it is not illegel. If rule in favor of the team that was at 14 first and say to go back and replay you are breaking one rule and adding to another, which you can't do. Therefore, by the rule, and not personal opinions on sportsmanship, you would have to side with the team that won 15-14. Then educate why that shouldn't happen ever again.
    My point is that it is the oposition that choose what to play to, if that is not done vocaly then you don't serve because you do not know what you are playing up to.

    This is my understanding of the rules, simple as that!

  2. #36
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    Dill:
    I understand your point. I agree with you and in a perfect world it would never happen. It happens often in lower level flights of tournaments because not everyone is 100% sure of the rules. But you did not answer the question. How would you rule if you were a tournament director and two teams came to you and explin your justification in accordance with the rules?
    I am interested in finding out how everyone would rule on this matter.
    Again to recap:
    Once the game has gone on to the next point you cant go back, because the rule says it has to be declared before the next serve. So how would you rule?

  3. #37
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    I would ask them to continue playing at 14-14 instead, and whoever got the 14 first has to decide on setting before they resume the play.

    Quote Originally Posted by badmonte
    Dill:

    I understand your point. I agree with you and in a perfect world it would never happen. It happens often in lower level flights of tournaments because not everyone is 100% sure of the rules. But you did not answer the question. How would you rule if you were a tournament director and two teams came to you and explin your justification in accordance with the rules?
    I am interested in finding out how everyone would rule on this matter.
    Again to recap:
    Once the game has gone on to the next point you cant go back, because the rule says it has to be declared before the next serve. So how would you rule?

  4. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveStanley
    I would ask them to continue playing at 14-14 instead, and whoever got the 14 first has to decide on setting before they resume the play.
    Would you still do that if.... instead of bringing it up after 1 point, the other team brought it up after playing 3 points? Say for example, mndtrks kids tied it at 14, then served and won the match 17-16. Now what if the other kids then mentioned that they never got the option to "not set." Would you make them go back to 14-14 and replay? Because having the option to set or not set, would be the same situation.

  5. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Smurf
    Would you still do that if.... instead of bringing it up after 1 point, the other team brought it up after playing 3 points? Say for example, mndtrks kids tied it at 14, then served and won the match 17-16. Now what if the other kids then mentioned that they never got the option to "not set." Would you make them go back to 14-14 and replay? Because having the option to set or not set, would be the same situation.
    Difference in this instance would be that both teams played past 15 points and if the play was at 14 all then service would have changed hands a couple of times, so there is time to raise an objection during the game.

    In the other instance I would have the players together and discuss both sides of the argument but the team that won have broken the rules by not waiting for the other team to let them know what to set to, they continued play regardless.

    My option would be that having everyone return to the court to play to one point would be silly and that possibly 3 points would not be a good idea either, my prefered option would be to have a game to 5 points without any setting but only if both teams agreed and no objections were raised by either the teams or their coaches. This should be fair and eliminate any quick points or flukey shots and give both teams a chance. It would also eliminate any recriminations afterwards by the players or their coaches, i.e. I had to play more points than the other teams and I was tired in the final.

    If you agree you have nowhere to run and can only blame yourself.

    In the instance of this happening more, then my view is that if you don't know the rules then you have to seek clarification at the judges table, afterall that is why they are there!

    If we have an umpire here I would like to hear their views - I think they would penalise the winners for breaking the rules.
    Last edited by Dill; 04-16-2005 at 12:53 PM.

  6. #40
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    If they play and won the match 17-16, it means both teams understood that they are playing to 17 and the serves have gone back and forth at least a few times. So, no replay off course.
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Smurf
    Would you still do that if.... instead of bringing it up after 1 point, the other team brought it up after playing 3 points? Say for example, mndtrks kids tied it at 14, then served and won the match 17-16. Now what if the other kids then mentioned that they never got the option to "not set." Would you make them go back to 14-14 and replay? Because having the option to set or not set, would be the same situation.

  7. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dill
    If we have an umpire here I would like to hear their views - I think they would penalise the winners for breaking the rules.
    There are soooo many things wrong with what you just said...First off, what i dont get is that you insist that it is mndtrks girls who broke the rules. No where in the rules does it say you have to ask. It is upto the people who got to 14 first to decide. IF anything, they're the ones who should get penalized, and it would be ridiculous to penalize them. The other girls knew the rules, but they didnt exercise that option. Its not like they DIDNT know and someone took advantage of them. The girls tied to score at 14, waited....held up the bird and said.."POINT-14"..then the other girls got ready to recieve the serve, and once it was served, they returned it. Then after the point was won, they said 'hey wait a minute, we wanted to set.' They CLEARLY KNEW THEY COULD SET. Playing past 1 point or 3 points, it does not matter, the moment to object is past. What youre thinking of is like similiar to arguing a line call 2 plays ago or 10 plays ago.....it does not matter, that moment has passed. What i mean is like if you hit a shot, i call it out. I think pickup the birdie serve it, you return it, we rally, i win the rally ofcourse (hehe), then you argue that i made a bad call on the last play and that the birdie touched the line.

    Then if your ruling would be to go out and play 5 more points, what if one of the sides didnt want to play for another 5? You would disqualify them? Not only are YOU breaking the rules, but youre adding on rules in the middle of a tournament. If one of those teams complained to your governing badminton board.....you would lose your sanction. Had you created that rule and posted it in writing at the beginning of the tournament you would be fine. But essentially you are creating rules that are not IBF sponsored. Why not stop at 5? why not throw the match out and make them play again? Or just disqualify both teams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveStanley
    If they play and won the match 17-16, it means both teams understood that they are playing to 17 and the serves have gone back and forth at least a few times. So, no replay off course.
    So if someone says to you.."GAME POINT"...do u not understand that we are playing for game point? They said.."POINT-14".....Other girls heard it, and returned the bird no problem.

  9. #43
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    So, if the girls say point-14, does it mean that they got to decide the "set"? Who should decide on the 1 or 3 set?

    That's why I'm saying, both teams made a mistake by not saying anything, that's why they have to replay.

    In case of winning at 17-16, does it make sense to replay? I just use my common sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Smurf
    So if someone says to you.."GAME POINT"...do u not understand that we are playing for game point? They said.."POINT-14".....Other girls heard it, and returned the bird no problem.

  10. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Smurf
    There are soooo many things wrong with what you just said...First off, what i dont get is that you insist that it is mndtrks girls who broke the rules.
    Not broke the rules, but ignored them! The oposition are the ones with the choice of what to set to as per the rules so why did they just anounce the score and serve? Is it not their duty to wait for a reply?


    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Smurf
    No where in the rules does it say you have to ask.
    That is correct you do not have to ask since you have no say in the outcome but you do have to wait for a reply do you not? So how can you proceed without a clear indication of what to play to since it is not your decision?


    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Smurf
    It is upto the people who got to 14 first to decide. IF anything, they're the ones who should get penalized, and it would be ridiculous to penalize them. The other girls knew the rules, but they didnt exercise that option. Its not like they DIDNT know and someone took advantage of them. The girls tied to score at 14, waited....held up the bird and said.."POINT-14"..then the other girls got ready to recieve the serve, and once it was served, they returned it. Then after the point was won, they said 'hey wait a minute, we wanted to set.' They CLEARLY KNEW THEY COULD SET.
    Then fine, but what I would like to know what does "POINT-14" mean? I thought the correct call is "matchpoint", possibly including a "what do you want to set to?" so ther is no way there can be any ambiguity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Smurf
    Playing past 1 point or 3 points, it does not matter, the moment to object is past. What youre thinking of is like similiar to arguing a line call 2 plays ago or 10 plays ago.....it does not matter, that moment has passed. What i mean is like if you hit a shot, i call it out. I think pickup the birdie serve it, you return it, we rally, i win the rally ofcourse (hehe), then you argue that i made a bad call on the last play and that the birdie touched the line. Then if your ruling would be to go out and play 5 more points, what if one of the sides didnt want to play for another 5? You would disqualify them? Not only are YOU breaking the rules, but youre adding on rules in the middle of a tournament. If one of those teams complained to your governing badminton board.....you would lose your sanction. Had you created that rule and posted it in writing at the beginning of the tournament you would be fine. But essentially you are creating rules that are not IBF sponsored. Why not stop at 5? why not throw the match out and make them play again? Or just disqualify both teams.
    Nope my point is that if there is any recourse by any of the players then it is dealt with in a common sense orientated manner after the action listening to both parties and their coaches and agreeing a course of action which all parties have a say.

    No I would not lose my sanction by agreeing a course of action which all parties had consented to! No one is being forced to play to a set score or another game.

    Matters like this sometimes have to be dealt with in tournaments but this since this one, according to you is outside the rules and their interpritation then the only fair way to resolve it is asking all parties involved their opinion and finding neutral ground and taking it from there, once action is agreed then there is no comeback from any party and no one does anything they don't want to.

    My analysis if there was a complaint about the game would be to ask mndtrks girls what the setting was to and who announced it, a game can only proceed if there is an anouncement of what to play to, 1 or 3. In my opinion matchpoint was not claimed by that side so they would be penalised serving when not knowing what to play to.

    That is unless of course if POINT-14 means matchpoint according to the rule book.

    That is my interpritation of what happened.

  11. #45
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    rematch from where the game were getting confused ( 14-14 1 st serve), but i don't think we could do that so the winning team stay cause they were both in the error.

  12. #46
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    No you would not lose your sanction if both parties agreed, but what i'm saying is what would you do if one of those parties did not agree to whatever it is that you decided. You still do not have a definite solution. What i'm trying to get it, is that you two (i forget who else was leaving posts) want to develop rules on a case-by-case basis. That would be totally unfair, because then youre leaving it upto human descretion, and thats how we got in this situation in the first place. My feeling is that IBF should come up with a contingency rule, basically doing one of two things.

    1)You leave it as is, and whoever got to 15 first would win.
    or
    2)You automatically goto a set 3, and one team would be up 15-14. (but theres problems here, because if you were the team that goto 14 first, why would u ever say anything? I would play it out, if i got the serve back it would be game point, if i didnt it would be set)

    The reason why it would be unfair if you leave it upto human descretion is that you will get different rulings based on the tournament director. You may not have a fair one, you may have a biased one who doesnt like that team. There should be one set rules so that you have an if/then.

    The other problem with the solution you guys came up with, is making a team replay a point. No matter what sport it is, you will NEVER see a team have to replay an event. (american football does not count, because the penalty would be directly related to the play, while in this case regardless of what decision of setting or not setting would be that would not effect the outcome of the next rally). If for basketball, a free throw was made while the clock wasnt running properly, they would NEVER make the player reshoot the free throw. No matter how bad the call on the play was. Example, 2 years ago in the NFL, tampa bay buccaneers, on 4th down. The guy managing the field marker left it on 3rd, brad johnson thought it was third down so he spiked the ball to kill the clock. Only to be later told it was really 4th down. You better believe the they got off the field because the game was over. Does that sound fair? someone holds up the wrong sign so he loses a game.....it was totally fair because he shouldve known what down it was.....same thing in this case, those girls should have known.

    And whoever it was...YES, you said that mndtricks girls broke the rules.
    "If we have an umpire here I would like to hear their views - I think they would penalise the winners for breaking the rules."

    All I'm trying to say is....come up with a standard rule that we can use without any exceptions.

  13. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dill
    Then fine, but what I would like to know what does "POINT-14" mean? I thought the correct call is "matchpoint", possibly including a "what do you want to set to?" so ther is no way there can be any ambiguity.
    In the US, on the west coast (i dont know if they do this anywhere else actually) we sometimes just go ..."POINT".....to signify matchpoint. I dunno its a westside thing i guess? We like to shorten things, everyones in such a daym hurry to spit out the sentence that we end up developing new words like...'shizzle'.....and every other word that rhymes with it.

  14. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Smurf
    No you would not lose your sanction if both parties agreed, but what i'm saying is what would you do if one of those parties did not agree to whatever it is that you decided. You still do not have a definite solution. What i'm trying to get it, is that you two (i forget who else was leaving posts) want to develop rules on a case-by-case basis. That would be totally unfair, because then youre leaving it upto human descretion, and thats how we got in this situation in the first place. My feeling is that IBF should come up with a contingency rule, basically doing one of two things.

    1)You leave it as is, and whoever got to 15 first would win.
    or
    2)You automatically goto a set 3, and one team would be up 15-14. (but theres problems here, because if you were the team that goto 14 first, why would u ever say anything? I would play it out, if i got the serve back it would be game point, if i didnt it would be set)

    The reason why it would be unfair if you leave it upto human descretion is that you will get different rulings based on the tournament director. You may not have a fair one, you may have a biased one who doesnt like that team. There should be one set rules so that you have an if/then.

    The other problem with the solution you guys came up with, is making a team replay a point. No matter what sport it is, you will NEVER see a team have to replay an event. (american football does not count, because the penalty would be directly related to the play, while in this case regardless of what decision of setting or not setting would be that would not effect the outcome of the next rally). If for basketball, a free throw was made while the clock wasnt running properly, they would NEVER make the player reshoot the free throw. No matter how bad the call on the play was. Example, 2 years ago in the NFL, tampa bay buccaneers, on 4th down. The guy managing the field marker left it on 3rd, brad johnson thought it was third down so he spiked the ball to kill the clock. Only to be later told it was really 4th down. You better believe the they got off the field because the game was over. Does that sound fair? someone holds up the wrong sign so he loses a game.....it was totally fair because he shouldve known what down it was.....same thing in this case, those girls should have known.

    And whoever it was...YES, you said that mndtricks girls broke the rules.
    "If we have an umpire here I would like to hear their views - I think they would penalise the winners for breaking the rules."

    All I'm trying to say is....come up with a standard rule that we can use without any exceptions.
    I'm not saying make anyone do anything, all I am saying is that all parties are present (players, coaches, officials) when any discussions are taking place with what to do and the matter is resolved to the satisfaction off all parties there is no bias towards any one party in the debate!

    These kind of things where situations arise that are not wholy covered by the rules happen more regularly than you know about and it is up to the tournament organisers to find neutral ways out of these kinds of predicaments that suits all parties involves. That is of course if there are no "local" rules previousley printed that take these things into account.

    More or less like local rules on certain golf courses.

    And the thing about saying "point" is that it is a regional variation and not evereyone would understand what this means especailly if the score has gotten away from them as it does in all games at times.

    You should be clear and either say "matchpoint" or "setting".

    I would still like to hear the opinion of a ref!

  15. #49
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    Default F0llowing The Law of Badminton IBF?

    In a proper tournament, beside the players, coaches, supporters, the appointment of courts officials- refereee, umpire, srvice judge and line judgel is very essential.
    Expecting player to act as umpire in a tournament is totally unfair.
    Beside your player is using the wrong vacabulary when the score reached point-14, instead of calling that, it should be called out as
    Match Pont, 14-all
    As your player called out the score as if she is the umpire, then she should ask the opponent side
    Are you setting?
    If affirmative
    Setting, 14-all
    or if the answer is negative.
    Game is not set
    Last edited by leehsim; 04-17-2005 at 11:53 PM.

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    Default I Agree with Papa Smurf!

    Again, everyone is trying to penalize mndtrcks girls, but they did not break a rule. Their opponents were the ones in error and should know their rules. I can't believe so many people want to add to the rules or break rules to rule "Fairly". Bottom line is you never go back and replay a point that has already been played. Many of you say that you would force them to go and play, but what if mndtrcks girls said they won, because the rules state that all games end at 15 unless the team at 14 first sets before the next serve is played. That is what the rule says. Would you disqualify them for knowing the rules better than you? I would side with mndtrcks girls everytime. I have coached many badminton teams in college and high school and if my players did not set and lost 15-14, I would be upset with them and myself. I would not be upset with mndtrcks girls. In fact it has happerned on more than one occasion and I've never asked to go back and replay anything. My team did not exercise their option and they lost. I try to teach personal responsiblity, not blame others. That's one of the great things about sports and how they relate to life.
    Last edited by badmonte; 04-18-2005 at 12:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveStanley
    So, if the girls say point-14, does it mean that they got to decide the "set"? Who should decide on the 1 or 3 set?

    That's why I'm saying, both teams made a mistake by not saying anything, that's why they have to replay.

    In case of winning at 17-16, does it make sense to replay? I just use my common sense.
    I do not get your point. The rule says you have a choice, but that choice is to be made before the next point is served. If you do not choose to set than you play to 15, or next point wins.
    What I also do not understand is that everyone is giving mndtrcks opponents an unfair advantage. Think about it...the best thing would be not to say anything and play the next point, then if you break serve you can serve for the win at 15. If you dont break serve then you can protest that you did not get a chance to set and must so you can play to 17. Has anyone thaught that maybe it is mndtrcks opponents that were being less than honest. They clearly knew they could set, but they didnt. It was only after they lost did they change their minds. Maybe they didnt want to set beacuse they thought they could break serve, and then when they lost they changes their minds. Why would anyone want to be so anxious to reward that kind of unsportsmanlike behavior?

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