weight training and backhand (How much to go end to end?)

[ralphz]

Suppose I'm specifically trying to improve strength on my backhand.

And I want to be able to do a backhand hitting the shuttle from one end of the court, to the other end.

Tramline to tramline.

Nobody in the club can do it, it'd be an extraordinary thing, for me at least, to be able to do.

I could put some weight on a dumbell and practise on my backhand, doing forearm supination. 15kg weight. 20kg weight.. Maybe more. How many backhand forearm supinations in a minute or in 30 seconds, would indicate a good speed and strength?

I wonder if anybody here has boosted that shot with that kind of exercise, and boosted the amount of weight or rate on that exercise, and can do the big one, that shot, tramline to tramline and has found a figure in terms of kg and rate e.g. reps per 30sec, that they built up to, that corresponds to their new ability to do the shot. And then what is that figure / rate.

 

[MSeeley]

I can't give you the answer you want... but I trained mine with a squash racket. I grooved the shot using shadowing with a squash racket - just repeating the perfect technique over and over again. I would also hit the shuttle on court with a squash racket - and I know lots of people who trained at a county level who learnt it the same way.

At the same time, I increased the strength in my forearm by using a rolling pin, string, and winding up a weight. I started with an empty suitcase as the weight, and gradually added books. I don't know how many kg that is, but reps wise I did it multiple times per day, normally about 20 one way and 20 the other, and I would do it as explosively as possible on the way up, and as slowly as possible on the way down, and make sure to switch which action I used for up and which for down. It developed a large amount of muscle in my forearm.

Ultimately, I think the quickest way to actually achieve this though is to go on court with a good coach and spend a couple of hours on the skill - you could easily achieve 3/4 court clear in 2 or 3 hours (or better if you practice outside lessons), and you combine this with the above exercises for strength you could be hitting full court within 2 weeks. But you must develop perfect technique during that time - both coaching or using the squash racket will help you achieve perfect technique, but coaching is quicker.

Good luck!

 

[Cheung]

I managed to cause a long term wrist injury using a squash racquet. Trying too hard, too fast. It was one of the older type squash racquets.

 

[Cheung]

I managed to cause a long term wrist injury using a squash racquet. Trying too hard, too fast. It was one of the older type squash racquets.

 

[ralphz]

..........using a rolling pin, string, and winding up a weight. I started with an empty suitcase as the weight, and gradually added books. I don't know how many kg that is, but reps wise I did it multiple times per day, normally about 20 one way and 20 the other, and I would do it as explosively as possible on the way up, and as slowly as possible on the way down, and make sure to switch which action I used for up and which for down. It developed a large amount of muscle in my forearm..........

isn't that movement not so much forearm supination but mostly a lot of wrist bending.

it sounds like you're describing a DIY version of this kind of device
www dot youtube docom/watch?v=5wVvR8y5cdM


But even if I try to do more forearm supination with a device like that, the large amount of wrist bending is unavoidable and not really meant to be part of forearm supination or pronation. I did once have a wrist exercising device and it increased my forearm size so maybe strengthening the wrist can build up the forearm, but perhaps not so relevant to a backhand. I'd have thought swinging a bat, racket with cover, or weighted racket, or perhaps a dumbell, doing forearm supination like that would be more the kind of relevant exercise far moreso than a device like a rolling pin and string with weight, which I think exercises wrists more.

 

[MSeeley]

You are absolutely correct - this is a general strengthening of the muscles in the forearm, but specifically using the movements of extension and flexion of the wrist to do so. If you want to target the supinators then maybe you want to consider bicep curls with supination to target the short head of biceps? You could try using a hammer and performing rapid pronation and supination with it? Or using a bottle of water and performing figure of 8 swings? I have tried all of these and I think they all work, although I have never really been into lifting weights, the dumbbell curls have been neglected (hasn't affected my backhand though).

Ultimately, I found that providing appropriate strength and support to my wrist and forearms has allowed my wrist joints to withstand the huge forces exerted on it during a full backhand stroke (sometimes performed with a squash racket or weighted training racket), even if it did not directly train the supinator muscles (but also trained grip strength and other important areas). Anyhoo - whatever combination I did, it definitely worked.

Now, more importantly than what I used to develop my backhand - what are you going to do to develop yours? Are you going to go the coaching route? Will you try a weighted racket? Will you start lifting dumbbells? Are you clear on what great technique is?

Good luck!

 

[visor]

Without the correct efficient technique, it's kinda useless to do countless hours trying to do strengthening exercises.

Seriously, you'd get results much faster from getting 6 hours of good coaching than doing 60 hours of your exercises.

 

[ralphz]

I know. I have coaching lessons too sometimes, and will be ordering a squash racket to strengthen my wrist.. I've got a good feel for how much my body can take and my wrists are strong enough that I can do 15kg bicep curls soon to be 17.5kg, and I can do forearm pronation and forearm supination with them after a set, though it'd be slow as the weight is rather heavy for me to do that. I've done 1.5kg forearm rotations(supination and pronation) in the past, no problem (I once broke my hand and/or wrist when I was 12 and a physio gave me that exercise to build the strength back up, it is fully recovered now and the strength built up quickly, she was impressed by my speed so maybe I will do that exercise and weight again or 3kg max which I remember trying just for fun). I think i'm pretty safe with a 200gram squash racket doing forearm pronation and supination rapidly, or as rapidly as I can reasonably do without getting near injury.

And i'm well aware that technique is the most important thing, getting the right movement. I do give that thought and get feedback from coaches from that. Nevertheless, i'm interested in the subject of building strength too. One of the coaches i've seen has used a squash racket for the task.

 

[MSeeley]

Sounds like you already have a good foundation in strength. The missing ingredient is probably technique - but this will come as you continue what you are doing by practising and receiving coaching. This, combined with the squash racket practice you will try will no doubt help you achieve your goal!

As a tip from me - when I practised my backhand with the squash racket, I did not swing as fast I could to build strength and power but more let the weight of the racket guide me as I worked out what the best path for the racket was. This soon translated into an easy understanding of the correct technique, and using the weight of the racket to achieve the end to end clear. When I then practised with a badminton racket, my technique was already in place, and I was able to use the lighter racket with ease.

Good luck!

 

[ralphz]

As a tip from me - when I practised my backhand with the squash racket, I did not swing as fast I could to build strength and power but more let the weight of the racket guide me as I worked out what the best path for the racket was

what do you mean..

let's say the shuttlecock is not behind me. I use the thumb grip, (I practised a scenario where my partner serves and it gets returned there). Then I understand I should be extending my arm i.e. at the elbow, and using ulnar deviation of the wrist (moving the wrist sideways in the direction of the little finger which is the direction of the ulnar bone of the forearm) and tightening my grip. One coach said to also swing upper arm too to get more power.

no doubt the path of the racket is determined by how you move your limbs while you're holding it but do you know specifically what the weight of the racket taught you about your limb movements? and if the weight affects how you move your limbs then would you use a different technique whether it was practising with a squash racket vs practising with a badminton racket?!

though anyhow I don't think the path of the racket is really in question.. and if it was that'd be more of a technique question. i'm curious what you think of that technique I just mentioned though.

ta

 

[MSeeley]

what do you mean..

let's say the shuttlecock is not behind me. I use the thumb grip, (I practised a scenario where my partner serves and it gets returned there). Then I understand I should be extending my arm i.e. at the elbow, and using ulnar deviation of the wrist (moving the wrist sideways in the direction of the little finger which is the direction of the ulnar bone of the forearm) and tightening my grip. One coach said to also swing upper arm too to get more power.

no doubt the path of the racket is determined by how you move your limbs while you're holding it but do you know specifically what the weight of the racket taught you about your limb movements? and if the weight affects how you move your limbs then would you use a different technique whether it was practising with a squash racket vs practising with a badminton racket?!

though anyhow I don't think the path of the racket is really in question.. and if it was that'd be more of a technique question. i'm curious what you think of that technique I just mentioned though.

ta

Well from my view - the technique you described does not represent a backhand overhead clear. Utilisation of a thumb grip and using ulnar deviation is only really applicable to when the shuttle is well in front of you - if this is the technique you are trying to master, then you are right the squash racket will not help you much - but this is very much what you would use for backhand defence, or drives. Not for overhead. In this case, all my weight training that I did would be with regard to finger power - A short sharp squeeze of the racket can send the shuttle most of the distance of the court quite easily.

However, I assumed you were looking to learn a proper overhead backhand clear, where the contact point is either to the side of the body or slightly gone past the body (imagine Taufik hitting all his backhand strokes). This backhand clear technique requires the use of a bevel or a panhandle grip (depending on contact point), and utilises a combination of elbow extension, forearm pronation, forearm supination, a rolling of the racket hand (similar to turning a circular door knob) and finger tightening all the while the wrist remains almost locked in extension (no ulnar deviation or any other movement of the wrist).

Using a very heavy racket allows you to really feel what the "easiest" path of the racket is in order to hit with speed and power. And to a certain extent this correlates to using the weight of the racket as part of the stroke too - when the weight of the racket goes in the direction you want to hit the shot, you achieve a perfect technique that, when sped up, results in the racket moving fully towards your intended destination with maximum biomechanical efficiency (from my view!). This feeling is very different to the short and sharp tapping action you are describing from a backhand point of view using ulnar deviation. So it was the additional weight of the racket that made it easy for me to shadow the stroke, and learn in what sequence I need to pronate and extend and supinate and roll the hand and squeeze - it is a relatively complex action from a timing point of view, and I found the heavy racket really helped with that. When the racket is that heavy, it becomes very difficult to use your muscles to force the racket to move in a way that is not biomechanically sound (its just too heavy once it gets moving!).

I hope that helps explain the benefit I got from using a squash racket!

 

[visor]

What Matt means is that the use of a heavy squash racket forces you to not fight against the racket (or else it'll be obviously inefficient and may even lead to injuries), but instead it forces you to work with it and be mindful of the flow of kinetic transfer from hips all the way fingers and racket head.

You'll know immediately if you're not doing it right. And eventually this feedback loop will hone your technique, which is really being able to use your body and stroke efficiently biomechanically. And when you get it right, it's a most wonderful feeling and gets quite addictive.

 

[MSeeley]

What Matt means is that the use of a heavy squash racket forces you to not fight against the racket (or else it'll be obviously inefficient and may even lead to injuries), but instead it forces you to work with it and be mindful of the flow of kinetic transfer from hips all the way fingers and racket head.

You'll know immediately if you're not doing it right. And eventually this feedback loop will hone your technique, which is really being able to use your body and stroke efficiently biomechanically. And when you get it right, it's a most wonderful feeling and gets quite addictive.

Exactly. I wish I could have explained it like that!

 

[PracticalPlay]

Perhaps let me put it in a practical recreation player view instead of technical explanation. I got it end to end and even cross court after half a year. I can share that no doubt technique that many blah blah blah is important but there's no such things as achieving "perfect technique" (senior guys pls do not mislead), individual's execution still differ. My 5cents below,

1. Strength (weights or any exercises the seniors recommended)
2. Full correct backhand swing and follow through (youtube video there are many)
3. Rest and Repeat (You need time to build up, no short-cuts)

One more practical point to note: If you are using 28lb to 30++lb higher tension, you need be even stronger. The string don help you at all.

 

[ralphz]

Perhaps let me put it in a practical recreation player view instead of technical explanation. I got it end to end and even cross court after half a year. I can share that no doubt technique that many blah blah blah is important but there's no such things as achieving "perfect technique" (senior guys pls do not mislead), individual's execution still differ. My 5cents below,

1. Strength (weights or any exercises the seniors recommended)
2. Full correct backhand swing and follow through (youtube video there are many)
3. Rest and Repeat (You need time to build up, no short-cuts)

One more practical point to note: If you are using 28lb to 30++lb higher tension, you need be even stronger. The string don help you at all.

You mention "I got it end to end and even cross court after half a year."

Do you have any video of you or anybody doing that?

 

[FeatherBlaster]

What Matt means is that the use of a heavy squash racket forces you to not fight against the racket (or else it'll be obviously inefficient and may even lead to injuries), but instead it forces you to work with it and be mindful of the flow of kinetic transfer from hips all the way fingers and racket head.

You'll know immediately if you're not doing it right. And eventually this feedback loop will hone your technique, which is really being able to use your body and stroke efficiently biomechanically. And when you get it right, it's a most wonderful feeling and gets quite addictive.

I know this is an old post, but actually this is exactly why you should NEVER give head-light rackets to beginners or people with weak arms (such as juniors).

1) It requires good technique to build up speed with a head light racket.

2) It hinder your development of proper technique to play with such a racket.

-----------------

Regarding practice with a heavy racket, there are many ways to do this. I would not start by swinging smashes and backhand clears with it - especially not if it is a sqush racket (very heavy). The lighter training rackets are better suited for this purpose. Also bear in mind, that it is not just the weight/muscle training that's the benefit of practicing with a heavy racket, it is also what Visor points out here: immediate feedback on your technique.

A good exercise to start with, are the high long lifts from defensive position. Wide low stance, facing the net, have someone play shots towards your legs or feet, then hit the shot long. Starting with the backhand side. Important: start your movement with thrusting forward your elbow, bringing back your hand, coiling up the shot. Just like the backhand clear, see

 

[FeatherBlaster]

...
A good exercise to start with, are the high long lifts from defensive position. Wide low stance, facing the net, have someone play shots towards your legs or feet, then hit the shot long. Starting with the backhand side. Important: start your movement with thrusting forward your elbow, bringing back your hand, coiling up the shot. Just like the backhand clear, see

Actually, this exercise can be done from "side feeding" from the same side as the player. Both with heavy racket and with normal racket.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[LordGopu]

I don't think weights are necessary. I'm probably the only person at my club who can effectively use my backhand (like for clears and smashes) and I don't do any weights. My only exercise is badminton and I play maybe 2 to 3 times a week for about 2 hours. My backhand smash is quite hard, if I get the timing right, so I think it's just a body movement/timing thing. I'm not saying weights won't help, just that you don't need them to be able to hit a powerful backhand.

Whoever said that a few hours of coaching might be better than many hours of weights is probably right. Also keep in mind that backhands are less forgiving because you have less range of movement so you can't compensate for bad technique with a huge wind up.

 

[Charlie-SWUK]

Technique is always the substantial element in playing a shot well, not to say that some weights won't help, but they're unlikely to make or break your shot.

It's important to remember that by continually practising the motion, you're still gonna build up muscle to support playing the shot. Personally the backhand motion is one I practise a lot at home, I'll grab my racket and give the backhand a few swings to build up strength and shot familiarity there. Because your backhand should be used less than your forehand, you're less likely to have on-court practise with the shot, so it might be worth setting aside specific time to practise it.

 

[Lloyd2709]

Hi, I normally find that people who cannot do a good backhand clear is due to either:
i) too much use of arm movement - not enough wrist (normally they use arm and shoulder)
ii) wanting to put more force than speed in the racket
iii) and holding racket too tightly - the racket and forearm should be relax to be able to speed the shot
iv) not following up with the motion of the racket - stopping the racket motion too suddenly
v) bad body positioning - they try to take the shuttle too much on the side of their body. The body should be completely turned and the back facing the net completely.
vi) grip position problem - the grip should be about same as when doing a forehand net kill