Conventions in doubles

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by Zohar, Dec 12, 2017.

  1. Zohar

    Zohar Regular Member

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    I'm an (intermediate) amateur club player.

    I believe that the conventions (rules of thumb) in doubles game can be summarized succinctly. For example:

    1. When one of us attacks (e.g. drop or smash), we go into front-back attack position. We come out of it, to defense sides, only when one of us clears.
    2. There are two binary positions: Front-back and sides. After each shot, we go back to these positions.
    3. From sides position, you drop, you follow, and you partner goes to the back.

    Where can I find such a concise summary?
     
  2. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    There's also the flat game: if your opponents manage to play a fast drive defense, you're not in the attack anymore, but in a neutral flat game. In this case, you usually have to move to a side-by-side position as well, although it's a lot more offensive than the side-by-side-with-rackets-down defense.

    Also, it's not explicitly stated, but the attacker's positions are anything but static. The front court player is the boss here, since the back court player can see her. As long as the front court player stands in the center of the court or the backcourt player's side, the attack is maintained. When the front court player goes to the opposite side of the backcourt player, this signals a rotation: roughly speaking, the next shot will be taken by the player on which side it goes to. Of course, there are gigantic variations, depending on absolute skill, relative skill of the two partners, their preferences, etc. .
    By default, the front court player should go for rotation if a shot is too short, or if they want to rotate to the back (for instance because their smash is better), and otherwise try to maintain the attack without rotation.

    No, not really. I think it is much more useful to think of the situation first and player positioning second:
    • During the attack, you want to maintain it, so the tendency is for one player to cover the front court and the other player to attack. Beware that you may have to rotate though when applicable.
    • In the flat game, both of you have your rackets up and try to get into the attack. Since there are a lot of fast shots going to the sides, the tendency is side-by-side.
    • In the defense, you must cover the whole court. You will stand side-by-side, with rackets down.
    Nope, whether you drop or smash doesn't make a large difference (and the transition between drop and smash is fluid anyway). Specifically, if you drop to the center or the front player's side from the back, you will almost certainly remain in the back.
     
    #2 phihag, Dec 13, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
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  3. thyrif

    thyrif Regular Member

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    Yes, these things are a little mode fluid, I agree with phihag.
    Some extra notes (unstructured):
    - there are side/side and front/back positions, but they are fluid and only meant to assist you in covering the court together
    - start to move when the opponent plays, not only after you play. actually, continuous movement is best
    - when someone plays a drop or smash, they have already received a lift or clear, and thus the other player is already in front (start to move when the opponent plays, not only after you play)
    - switching from side/side to front/back or visaversa is called the in-and-out 'system' switching
    - rotation described by phihag: sometimes, when playing in the back, a short lift will allow the back player to really attack, then the front player makes space, signalling the back player to move forward after the strike. This is called round-round in my country.
    - sometimes after the back player plays a smash from one back corner, the front-player has to help out if the opponents manage to play a fast cross to the back
    - in defense, racket is down as much as in front of you, hitting the shuttle before it reaches you is critical, as in frnot you have much control as opposed to when it reaches your body
    - remember that playing the space is more important than hitting hard, use the net
    - the front court player is often underestimated, it is thought the back player is the one attacking, but it is the front player who will make the difference. think of the back player as the muscle, the front court player is the brains. Especially in mix doubles :p
     
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  4. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    I almost agree. I want to add following:

    During defense the defenders orientate their position towards facing the shuttle if the backcourt player of the opponent receive a lift. You don't stand fixed in your court side. you move/follow the shuttle laterally.

    I personally don't fully agree to keep the racket down (maybe it interpret it wrong and switched it with pointing down) during defence. If you move the rear court player with flat lifts or deep into the corners, which is natural, he can't smash with a ultra steep angles. IMO you will miss chances to counter attack with a flat shot if keep the racket not up. Especially if you are the cross court defender and got smashed to, the angle isn't as steep as for the straight defender.
     
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  5. Zohar

    Zohar Regular Member

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    These were just a few examples. Before I get into discussion about them, I'm wondering again if there's anywhere a concise guide about doubles conventions and tactics (e.g. in the spirit of https://www.badmintonbible.com/articles).
    If there isn't, then formulating one might not be such a bad idea, and I believe that a lot of club players would benefit from it.
     
  6. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    That's a very good point. When I spoke of rackets down, my intention was more to characterize the mindset, which by default should be defensive and always side-by-side (of course on an axis angled to the attacker) in the defense, whereas in the flat game it depends much more on the situation and sometimes you'll switch to front-back immediately.
     
  7. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    I read a few. I also came across different views at my club, clubs I played before and groups I played. IMO not everything works versatile which each partner. Especially when the played a slightly different system over years.

    Maybe @phihag is in the mood to translate this from Heinz Kelzenberg (a high level coach in Germany)? Credits to Diemo Ruhnow who released it: http://www.dr-badminton-training.de/taktik/flexibel-sein-im-doppel-von-heinz-kelzenberg

    I'm actually a bit lazy (came from training) and my english is not very well, so maybe I miss or twist something. :(
     
    #7 ucantseeme, Dec 13, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
  8. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    Great link! Didn't know the article. I do love translating, but I'm afraid my skills are nowhere near good enough to preserve the playful yet definitive language of the original. Here's my attempt:


    Many a conversation among doubles partners begins with "that was your shuttle". The following rules of thumb will clarify that there are many situations when a clear "I'm in front - you're in the back" isn't possible in the first place. Flexibility is the key!

    Rule of thumb 1:
    If my partner smashes, as the front player I move backwards, far behind the T (=front service) line!

    Rule of thumb 2:
    If my partner plays a drop, as the front player I move towards the net, in front of the T line.

    Rule of thumb 3:
    If my partner plays a finishing smash from the midcourt, I give way by stepping to the side. He will follow his smash towards the net and I become the backcourt player!

    Rule of thumb 4:
    If my partner plays a weak drop / smash from his backhand side, I must also cover the next long shot into the forehand side.

    Rule of thumb 5:
    If the opponents can smash from the middle, both defenders stand side-by-side, in the middle of their halves of the court. If the attack is coming from a side, both defenders move to that side, keeping the distance between them.

    Rule of thumb 6:
    A smash going between the players is covered by the player the shuttle is flying to, i.e. the one standing diagonally to the smasher.

    Rule of thumb 7:
    A clear to the middle is covered by the player the shuttle is flying to, i.e. the one standing diagonally to the player who cleared.

    Rule of thumb 8:
    A player who converts the defense to attack (short block defense) follows the shuttle to the net!
    A player who defends with a counter-drive covers their side of the court!

    Rule of thumb 9:
    If the opponents pressure my front player on the side, I move towards the net to cover the cross drop.

    Rule of thumb 10:
    Longline shots are usually more effective than crosscourt ones. In particular, with a cross-drop or cross-lift I often get my partner into trouble.

    Rule of thumb 11:
    80% of attacks go to the middle, so that my front player gets into the game, and to sow discord among the opponents.

    Rule of thumb 12:
    High shots (defense / lifts) by the defenders are played to the sides, to force the opponents into a bad angle and move them across the back court. Never play to the same spot twice!

    by Heinz Kelzenberg

    Heinz Kelzenberg, 47 years old, is a German A-Trainer [= BWF level 4 coach] and works as a badminton trainer in schools and clubs in Refrath. He authored the book "Badminton documents for child and youth training" and has created the talent pool and Bundesliga team of TV Refrath [a relatively new yet very good badminton club in Germany, near Cologne. They won the German championship this year].
     
    #8 phihag, Dec 13, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
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  9. speCulatius

    speCulatius Regular Member

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    Obviously, #4 only works of both players play with the same hand.

    Overall, some pretty obvious 'rules' and I'm sure they'll help some. Thanks for sharing. I didn't know that article either, despite knowing about that homepage.

    @phihag
    If the opponents play a clear, nobody will stand diagonally to the smasher ;) (#7). Thanks for translating!
     
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  10. Zohar

    Zohar Regular Member

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  11. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    @Zohar. You should move back as soon as your opponent lifts (so your partner at back could smash). Ordering here is not quite right. I think rule #1 as stated could be re-phrased. It's only when you find your partner drops that you'd move forward (rule #2).

    I think this should be my last response to you.
     
  12. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    Back behind the front service line. Maybe it's clearer in picture form?

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Zohar

    Zohar Regular Member

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    Okay, so it's back relative to #2. I guess it depends on the starting position. I usually see it as sides, opponent lifts, go front. About being close to the net in drop, I guess it depends how good the drop is. In any case, it should be near the center and the cross drop should be covered.
    Yeah, I don't really believe that one sentence rules are too effective. The situation needs to be analyzed and the rule needs to be reasoned.
     
  14. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    The starting position in level doubles is always front-back, since you want to go to the attack immediately. If you are forced to lift, you have ample time to go back to a defensive stance. Watch any high-level doubles: When the receiver touches the shuttle after a short serve, their partner is at the center of the court behind them, and the same goes for the server.

    While reasoning is very helpful, you could just watch any top-level doubles, they all do this. If different tactics would be better, then doubles with similar playing strength would beat doubles which follow #1 and #2 in the long term. Therefore, it is likely that the current tactics are quite close to the optimum.

    Why do all the top-level doubles stand farther from the net for a smash than for a drop? Because a reply to a smash is likely going to be fast. Even a block reply will fly at least a meter over the net unless it hits the net chord. In contrast, especially a slow drop to the net does not allow fast flat replies, but plenty of play alongside the net.
     
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  15. TheBear

    TheBear Regular Member

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    In my experience, although the idea having a standard starting set of "rules-of-thumb" is a great one, people's ideas tend to conflict too much to allow it. Different clubs will tend to have different conventions, although some may tend to be common. I have found that the early days of a partnership involve a lot of discussion ! There's a lot of factors to take into consideration at club level, such as player agility/mobility, skillsets and confidence, along with the old favourite "that's not how I was taught to play" (which roughly translates normally to "I don't want to do that!"
     
  16. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    This may be true for lower-level players, but I don't think much - if any - variation exists among top-level coaches and their players when it comes to fundamentals of doubles strategy. In the top-level leagues, it's not rare to see players partner together for the very first time and immediately be quite effective against very experienced opponents.
     
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  17. TheBear

    TheBear Regular Member

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    phihag - I think you're absolutely right, I would agree regarding top level players, ignoring national differences of course (ref Tan Kim Her at the BWF Coaching Conference, where he refers to the differences between Chinese, Korean and Malaysian doubles, and of which I know nothing at all !). Zohar's original post did refer to amateur club level, which is where I was referring to.
     
  18. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    Yes, but just because there are a lot of idiots at low amateur club level does not mean that amateur club level players could not follow actual (high-level) tactics. Sure, these tactics may need some modification - maybe you can win with just a good clear at lower levels - but the fundamentals should be the same.

    For instance, by default every front player, no matter the level or nationality, should move slightly forwards when their partner drops, and slightly backwards when their partner smashes (rules #1 and #2 of the above list).

    Any other behavior - for example the front player covering their half of the court, or moving forwards on a smash and backwards on a drop - is not a matter of taste, but simply incorrect.
     
  19. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    @phihag, "moving backward when partner smash" is not really accurate, is it? Front court player should move backward as soon as a lift is played. When his partner smashes, whether this front player should go up or stay put would much depend on opponent's response. With a fast drive response, there's no time or reason for this player to move forward. However, with a block defense, this player should really move forward to get that.
     
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  20. necrohiero

    necrohiero Regular Member

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    Hmm. I agree a lot with the rule of thumb.

    Only, 1 and 2 is kinda difficult to apply when a way taller guy (and also inexperienced) becomes the front player. (Which becomes my observation because i am quite short). Funny things happens.. i also not able to see the middle part of the court while smashing from behind him.. the experienced ones duck when the ball was not hit yet... Any tips? Tell the taller guy to just stand nearer to the net is also stupid.. maybe duck more?

    But yeah. Generally true
     

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