4 finishing knots

[kakinami]

This seems like you assume that more tension is lost when double pulling the first two crosses compared to the tension lost with a finishing knot?

If that's your assumption, why do you think so?

If it's just about using the same knot, there already were plenty suggestions of knots that can be used for both, tie-off and starting.

Also, do you hold the end of the starting knot when pulling the first cross(es)?

No assumptions about double pulling, when I pull tension after I knot on the 2nd cross, I am still pulling on the knot, that is qhat I want to get away from doing. Of course there is always tension loss after I knot but I want to get away from pulling on my knot, especially at higher tensions. I have had my mains break on me a few times at 30 pounds, I did hold my tail when tensioning my 2nd cross after knotting, sometimes it would slip into the grommet and the main would snap at that knot that is pulled through. =)

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[tjiew]

@kakinami at what tension your starting knot is sinking? Well, I guess it is depend on thickness of string.

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[kakinami]

@kakinami at what tension your starting knot is sinking? Well, I guess it is depend on thickness of string.

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30 66um

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[tjiew]

30 66um

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Hahaha, not surprised. I encountered it so many times on 66UM at 30lbs. You may want to try to tie at B6 with gudgeon knots(extra 1 or 2 loops) and pull twice. 1st pull, not reaching the tension then release (check if it is sinking), 2nd pull, reach the tension, press knot function(depends, might not need) , then quickly clamp

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[kakinami]

Hahaha, not surprised. I encountered it so many times on 66UM at 30lbs. You may want to try to tie at B6 with gudgeon knots(extra 1 or 2 loops) and pull twice. 1st pull, not reaching the tension then release (check if it is sinking), 2nd pull, reach the tension, press knot function(depends, might not need) , then quickly clamp

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I guess my question on people's thoughts on finishing knots on all 4 knots. If you do 2 piece you finish on your mains and your last cross. Do you see any drawbacks on a finishing knot after you start your mains like Mark Lawrence does or is a starting knot better, even though you have tension loss on 3 of your other finishing knots? If I tie finishing knots with BG66 Ultimax on 3 knots but only have a problem with my starting knot sometimes sinking and breaking the main, would going back to where I started my cross and tie a finishing knot have any drawbacks? When I tie my finishing knots at 30+ pounds I don't have any problems, only sometimes when I do a starting knot and it sinks. My finishing knots have never had a problem except when I pulled too tight on it a few times and have learned my lesson since 2011 when I did it (Guadalajara Mexico, I was cranking on my finishing knot of my crosses when I finished a racket for Paula Obanana). I do not ever recall my Gudgeon Knot ever sinking into grommets only my starting knot =)

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[tjiew]

I guess my question on people's thoughts on finishing knots on all 4 knots. If you do 2 piece you finish on your mains and your last cross. Do you see any drawbacks on a finishing knot after you start your mains like Mark Lawrence does or is a starting knot better, even though you have tension loss on 3 of your other finishing knots? If I tie finishing knots with BG66 Ultimax on 3 knots but only have a problem with my starting knot sometimes sinking and breaking the main, would going back to where I started my cross and tie a finishing knot have any drawbacks? When I tie my finishing knots at 30+ pounds I don't have any problems, only sometimes when I do a starting knot and it sinks. My finishing knots have never had a problem except when I pulled too tight on it a few times and have learned my lesson since 2011 when I did it (Guadalajara Mexico, I was cranking on my finishing knot of my crosses when I finished a racket for Paula Obanana). I do not ever recall my Gudgeon Knot ever sinking into grommets only my starting knot =)

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I always wanna to know how "Halim - the stringer" does his starting knot. His starting knot is always bulky. Below is one of his video stringing GVS racket.


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[Z-Force III]

I always wanna to know how "Halim - the stringer" does his starting knot. His starting knot is always bulky. Below is one of his video stringing GVS racket.


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Seems to be the Gudgeon/Toshi Knot just tightend a different way due it is a starter.

 

[Z-Force III]

I guess my question on people's thoughts on finishing knots on all 4 knots. If you do 2 piece you finish on your mains and your last cross. Do you see any drawbacks on a finishing knot after you start your mains like Mark Lawrence does or is a starting knot better, even though you have tension loss on 3 of your other finishing knots? If I tie finishing knots with BG66 Ultimax on 3 knots but only have a problem with my starting knot sometimes sinking and breaking the main, would going back to where I started my cross and tie a finishing knot have any drawbacks? When I tie my finishing knots at 30+ pounds I don't have any problems, only sometimes when I do a starting knot and it sinks. My finishing knots have never had a problem except when I pulled too tight on it a few times and have learned my lesson since 2011 when I did it (Guadalajara Mexico, I was cranking on my finishing knot of my crosses when I finished a racket for Paula Obanana). I do not ever recall my Gudgeon Knot ever sinking into grommets only my starting knot =)

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kakinami, have you ever tried to use my starting knot? It's a modified gudgeon/toshi.

1. You create two loops around the main string same as for toshi/gudgeon
2. Instead of one loop runing through the two loops you can do a second
3. The tightening gets tricky, i normally pull the string outside the frame two the first two loops tight, but not two tigh
4. I need to remember which loop was first, second third and need to pay attention that they don't cross and lie beside each other in order
5. I gently pull the first loop tight, by pulling the second.
6. Now I gently pull the second loop tight, by pulling the tail

 

[Mark A]

I was watching a video of Mr Mark Lawrence string a badminton racket and thought it was peculiar he used a starting clamp for starting his crosses. I know he has been doing it for a long time but never thought to use, or in fact didn't want to use a starting clamp to start my crosses because I always felt a starting clamp on a badminton racket was a little heavy and felt it would mark the frame from being pulled against it. But then I thought I always do 4 finishing knots on tennis, it would probably be a good idea for me to do it on badminton.

What I have been trying is starting on my left side weave my first 2 crosses, leave enough to tie and/or pull. Clamp closest to tail (left side) and pull first cross, clamp right side so first string has 2 clamps. Then I would preweave next 2 crosses because floating clamp gets in my way of cross #4 which is a shared hole and I want to make sure it doesn't cross over. Pull cross #2 and use a floating clamp to replace right side clamp then release left clamp cross #1 and clamp on cross #2. The floating clamp holds the 2 crosses and cross #2 has tension, but then we can come back to finish cross #1 later. Either to cross #5 or 7 or if you want finish but at that point my left clamp can be free so I can go back to cross #1 to remove floating clamp. In doing these steps I can have 4 finishing knots instead of 3 and a starting knot. Whatcha think?

I want to ask if Toyozouki can make a smaller and lighter badminton starting clamp. =)

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I never understood the reason for holding the crosses with a starting clamp - why stress the frame (and the string) unnecessarily when a starting knot does the job.

And there's no pullback with a starting knot.

 

[Z-Force III]

Should be a good starter @kakinami it's triple looped through the 2 created loops

 

[kakinami]

kakinami, have you ever tried to use my starting knot? It's a modified gudgeon/toshi.

1. You create two loops around the main string same as for toshi/gudgeon
2. Instead of one loop runing through the two loops you can do a second
3. The tightening gets tricky, i normally pull the string outside the frame two the first two loops tight, but not two tigh
4. I need to remember which loop was first, second third and need to pay attention that they don't cross and lie beside each other in order
5. I gently pull the first loop tight, by pulling the second.
6. Now I gently pull the second loop tight, by pulling the tail

So it is 4 loops? 2 around the mains and 2 around the loops? I think Tim Willis does 3 loops and 2 loops to make his bulky knot unanchored. Your knot sounds more bulky, secure!

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[kakinami]

I never understood the reason for holding the crosses with a starting clamp - why stress the frame (and the string) unnecessarily when a starting knot does the job.

And there's no pullback with a starting knot.

Do you anchor your cross starting knot, or is it a bulky knot free from your main? My problem was at higher tensions my starting knot sunk and broke the main. What I was trying was instead of using a starting clamp was I was using a flying clamp. Maybe I shouls try 2 flying clamps =)

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[kakinami]

View attachment 199673

Should be a good starter @kakinami it's triple looped through the 2 created loops

That looks really secure! What I want though is a uniform string job with all my knots to match. If you do 2 piece you have 3 finishing knots correct? Why not have all for so your string job is uniform? If you do 1 piece most people like Haribito string pattern which is kinda like a modified around the world keeping your mains tensioned and finishing knots on your crosses keeping a uniform tension around the racket, mains tight and tension loss on crosses due to finishing knots. My finishing knots don't have any problems and are all the same. When I string a tennis racket I use 4 finishing knots by using a starting clamp. Trying with badminton I have been trying a flying clamp to hold my cross so I can go back and finish my cross #1 not to have any extra tension on my knot.

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[speCulatius]

I don't think that going uniform on the knots will have any significant improvement for "uniform" tension, only for uniform looks.

I think that for many reasons, but most importantly the racket head is not a circle, the strings don't all have the same length, not even the same distance between them. BWF even removed the rule that the stringbed should be uniform.

Not even the (amount of) material, frame shape, ... is uniform around the hoop.

Also, you deform the racket even more by starting in one spot and going from there. Starting from, the center could improve that, but even that won't eliminate it.

How do you account for the stress on the strings over time being different? Well... assuming the player hits mostly cleanly.

If you want to do it, because you feel safer when stringing and you want to have all the same knots, it's fine, but I wouldn't believe that there's any other significant impact.

And if you find a more compact starting clamp that you like, share it here, please.

 

[Z-Force III]

Also you also don't have constant/the same friction between for each cross string (lower and upper parts weaved with less mains) and you pull the crosses also with different angles that cross string, segment between frame and gripper are not often in one line and have more contact with grommets or on blocked holes contact with string running outside. IMO impossible to have each segment regardless if main are cross at the exact same tension.

 

[s_mair]

What I want though is a uniform string job with all my knots to match.

I honestly don't really get the problem there. If you want to have four identical knots for whatever reasons (in your case most likely four regular Gudgeons) and you see risks with pulling directly against it a a starter, then I don't really see a way around using a starting clamp and tie it off as finishing knot. If you're worried about the frame being damaged by the clamp, then use a piece of leather or cardboard between clamp and frame.

What I'm fully convinced after doing my little tension loss experiments is that those teenytiny things like a 1 mm tension loss snap back of the clamps after a tie-off knot or doing a double pull to start the crosses make jack sh*t of a difference in the end result.

And just out of curiosity - is anyone other than myself in here regularly using the bulky knot as tie-off and/or starter?



I am utterly happy with that knot. It's almost a miracle how little it's sinking into the grommet looking at the size of it. 30 lbs. (double) pulled against it as a starter and it still sits nice an comfortably on top of the grommet. And I didn't have any of the broken outer layers of LN1 on tie-offs like I had with the Gudgeon.

 

[mokomima]

Do you anchor your cross starting knot, or is it a bulky knot free from your main? My problem was at higher tensions my starting knot sunk and broke the main. What I was trying was instead of using a starting clamp was I was using a flying clamp. Maybe I shouls try 2 flying clamps =)

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If you want to use a starting clamp, why you would go for a flying clamp, if you already have the Yonex starting clamp (I saw it in one of your videos: Or did you sell it?

If you're afraid of damaging the frame, just put any kind of pad between it (I think Koyo has a few pictures of it on his Facebook account how he does it).
Otherwise go for a starting knot and accept that 1 knot is looking different (by the way I used the knot of Halim in the past with 3 loops going 3 times through it. Hold everything when you tighten the knot the right way because this was a bit difficult).

I don't really understand why you think about using a flying clamp when having the "Ferrari" (Yonex) starting clamp in your tool kit

 

[kakinami]

I honestly don't really get the problem there. If you want to have four identical knots for whatever reasons (in your case most likely four regular Gudgeons) and you see risks with pulling directly against it a a starter, then I don't really see a way around using a starting clamp and tie it off as finishing knot. If you're worried about the frame being damaged by the clamp, then use a piece of leather or cardboard between clamp and frame.

What I'm fully convinced after doing my little tension loss experiments is that those teenytiny things like a 1 mm tension loss snap back of the clamps after a tie-off knot or doing a double pull to start the crosses make jack sh*t of a difference in the end result.

And just out of curiosity - is anyone other than myself in here regularly using the bulky knot as tie-off and/or starter?



I am utterly happy with that knot. It's almost a miracle how little it's sinking into the grommet looking at the size of it. 30 lbs. (double) pulled against it as a starter and it still sits nice an comfortably on top of the grommet. And I didn't have any of the broken outer layers of LN1 on tie-offs like I had with the Gudgeon.

My problem is that sometimes at higher tensions my knot slips into the grommet and the main breaks at higher tensions. Maybe that is because sometimes I pull on first cross to get some slack out. I do have a piece of leather and I do still use the 2 Yonex starting clamps I didn't pay for. This usually only happens with BG66 Ultimax.

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[kakinami]

If you want to use a starting clamp, why you would go for a flying clamp, if you already have the Yonex starting clamp (I saw it in one of your videos: Or did you sell it?

If you're afraid of damaging the frame, just put any kind of pad between it (I think Koyo has a few pictures of it on his Facebook account how he does it).
Otherwise go for a starting knot and accept that 1 knot is looking different (by the way I used the knot of Halim in the past with 3 loops going 3 times through it. Hold everything when you tighten the knot the right way because this was a bit difficult).

I don't really understand why you think about using a flying clamp when having the "Ferrari" (Yonex) starting clamp in your tool kit

I know Koyo uses the Parnell Pad when he uses his starting clamp and Mark Lawrence just uses his starting clamp. I was just looking for an alternative and what people though about this. It seems people are not understanding why I want to do this. It is because a few times BG66 Ultimax has snapped my main because my knot has slipped into the grommet. It has happened more than 1 time, so I was just looking for an alternative to use finishing knots instead of a starting knot that POSSIBILITY slip into the grommet and snap the main. I have only broken the main 1 time using finishing knots and that was because I was cranking on it because I was stupid. Otherwise I have never broken a main with a finishing knot.

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[Alex82]

@kakinami I usually pull only with 9 kg directly on the knot. Second cross with 10 kg (if tension is over 10 kg...). After that normal tension of the crosses. Normally my knots don't slip into the grommet (sometimes on cheap rackets with huge grommets and higher tensions).
BUT: I string my own rackets with 28/30 lbs and BG66UM. Sometimes it happens, that the main breaks where the cross knot is. It does not happen immediately, mostly after several months. The knot it not slipped into the grommet if that happens. Perhaps the knot will tighten further over time and damage the main string.