Android Phones for Service Fault Call

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by pcll99, Sep 17, 2023.

  1. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    1. I like to propose an idea: Android phones to assist the service judge in calling service faults.

    [​IMG]

    2. Drawing a thin red line by an app on a smartphone should not be very difficult. The Android phones are there to assist the service judge, not to replace him.

    3. Samsung, Huawei, Xiaomi, Vivo or Meizu may be willing to sponsor this idea. Badminton is after all an Asian sport. (There is no need to consider Apple here.)

    4. We should think of this as a source of revenue for BWF.

    5. If we as fans can see this on TV ourselves, it would make the games so much more fun to watch!!

    6. It would be even better if the player can challenge the service fault call! It's more drama!! [and fairness too]

    What do you think?
     
    #1 pcll99, Sep 17, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2024
  2. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    One line will have unacceptably high margin of error. You'll need at least 2 lines to form an accurate plane to determine the height of the serve. Maybe a camera looking thru the parallax lines of the current contraption that the service judge looks thru. Then the servers can challenge the call via that camera.

    Sent from my SM-S918W using Tapatalk
     
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  3. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    thanks.

    [​IMG]

    i think there are a few options:

    (A) maybe just maintain the current set up: two acrylic plates (ie Service Fault Guides), BUT put a smartphone behind both acrylic plates ... [no need for a thin red line on the smartphone]

    (B) just one acrylic plate, PLUS one smartphone, separating by a few centimeters

    (C) no acrylic plate.. JUST the smartphone. You do need the thin red line [drawn by an app] on the smartphone.

    American baseball is experimenting something similar; it's called automated ball-strike system, ABS, (or Robo Ump). Korean baseball is doing it too.

    https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/...for-2024-as-mlb-mulls-future-with-robot-umps/



    [​IMG]
     
    #3 pcll99, Sep 18, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2024
  4. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    You could then use AI to judge the service height.
     
  5. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    Initially, during the first and second years of trial run, I think we should keep it simple, either option (A) or (B). The overriding consideration is fairness of the game. A player must be able to challenge a wrong service fault call, especially during a very tight game. (We have all seen a few questionable service fault calls.)

    Making money from the sponsorship is of secondary importance.

    The phone is to "suggest" to the service judge whether it is a fault or not. The decision rest with the service judge. Of course, the player can challenge to the referee.
     
    #5 pcll99, Sep 18, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2024
  6. BadmintonDave

    BadmintonDave Regular Member

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    Put a tiny metal tracker in the shuttle.

    Make it complete a circuit if contact with the shuttle is made at 115.001cm or more above the ground. When the circuit is completed a buzzer sound happens, to tell the audience of the illegality.

    How to make it only happen at the start of a ralley? I'm not an inventor ^^
     
  7. psyclops

    psyclops Regular Member

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    On tv courts, at least the ones that have many camera views, do have operational Hawkeye technology. The shuttle is tracked in real time in a 3-dimensional space. It will give you the height at which the shuttle was hit and the orientation of the shuttle. So yes, there is a high tech version to ascertain height at which the shuttle is hit.

    However, shuttle height is not the only way that a server will fault. S/he may be moving their feet, or, not have continuous forward motion of racquet, or miss the shuttle completely during serve. These are also service faults, that will not be measurable with mobile phone or hawkeye.

    And the undue delay; this will not be measurable with mobile phone, and I doubt if AI can help there as the data is lacking.
     
  8. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    This would be pretty good, especially if it could incorporate all the faults that @psyclops referred to.

    There was one time I saw Lin Dan standing on the centre line when serving. Who should be calling the fault? Samsung?
     
  9. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    Thanks.

    All the faults referred to by @psyclops should be called by the service judge. A human would be a better judge for calling those faults than an android phone.

    The android phone should focus on the service height only, ie is it over 115cm? Again, it is for the service judge to make the call; the android phone only makes a suggestion to him.

    If a player is unhappy with the call, he can challenge to the referree, of course.
     
  10. nokh88

    nokh88 Regular Member

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    Depends who is the opponent.
    If against CHN players, no fault.
    If against KOR players, Samsung
    If against USA players, Apple.
     
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  11. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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  12. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    Cameras have lenses and distortion. I personally see here no argument why this should be more fair when a screen shows an incorrect image. Server stand on various positions of the court. Switching the side to serve or a more way back serve in mixed doubles by the male or in singles lead to mistakes. A simple line don't work. You see it in the picture of #3 where the tramlines bend down. This needs extra effort to adjust these android smartphones to overcome this problem to get minimal impact on that. It makes everything more worse and complicated than it is, yet.



    Here is a good example that players simply can't serve legal and put the blame on a service judge which got also swapped.

    We have also seen many umpire fails and bs in the past years so I see there would be more impact in terms of training courses for the officials. Also players should practice serves within the legal rules instead of trying to get away with it by luck.

    It's also a matter of fact in nearly every kind of sports that players do things which are borderline and past to the rules to get an advantage. I personally don't see here only the reason by the service judges when it comes to fairness.

    I personally don't need more delay in games by challenges on services because many players even get too often away with their delaying tactics and mind games by most umpires which is also unfair and often up to the umpire how he judge it.
     
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  13. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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  14. SSSSNT

    SSSSNT Regular Member

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    How about eliminating service fault entirely. Bring the service and receive line back two steps and you can serve however you want as long as not downward.
     
  15. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    #15 pcll99, Jan 22, 2024
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2024
  16. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    This Snapdragon 8 Gen 2 can do some interesting AI stuffs!!

      • Qualcomm Hexagon Processor
        • First Snapdragon Mobile Platform with hardware-based micro tile inferencing to run complex neural networks
        • Hexagon Direct Link allows all cores to work faster and more efficiently with Hexagon via a physical link to reach the highest performance
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        • Dual-AI processors powering new experiences like direct-to-app voice assistance
        • Always-on and ultra-low power for audio, sensors and always-sensing camera
      • Support for all precisions (INT4, INT8, INT16, FP16)


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          • Pro Sight Video Capture provides 5x larger file sizes for better quality footage and professional editing capabilities
          • Quad Computational HDR Video Capture (with QDOL image sensors) and support for Staggered HDR image sensors
          • AV1 codec for video playback
    https://www.qualcomm.com/products/m...-platforms/snapdragon-8-gen-2-mobile-platform

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    https://www.qualcomm.com/products/m...-platforms/snapdragon-8-gen-3-mobile-platform


    example of Real-time Semantic Segmentation:

    [​IMG]

    image segmentation

    [​IMG]
     
    #16 pcll99, Jan 24, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2024
  17. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    With all the obsession in terms of mobile phone technology and AI, there are still two aspects which get here totally ignored:

    First the camera distortion problem must be solved to reach the same optical accuracy. @pcll99 What is your solution for this?

    The second problem which is impossible to master is the call of the challenge by the players. After a doubtful line call players need to challenge instantly.

    How should this work at the serve situation? Opponents serve, service judge don't make a call. The player has the impression in this tense and excited situation an service error occured. If the receiver don't move and hit and raise his hand it can be also understood as not beeing ready, so umpire will made them play a let. This needs extra communication between receiver and umpire.

    If the challenge is after a rally (and the receiver who got the impression he got an disadvantage after the serve but still won the rally) has a dilemma and will don't get any advantage. The rally was played, he got the point. A challenge would just verify that he deserved the point without a rally when he lost the rally.

    Also the server can challenge the call by the service judge. This makes the games more longer and more disrupting. IMO there is due the change in the service rules enough fairness (body height is not advantage or disadvantage anymore) and we also get a good accuracy in terms of calls. Also bear in mind that the actually stands will work forever. A smartphone can have a defect and not working properly and must be interchanged.

    IMO this will disrupt the whole flow of the game and gives some kind of veto of the scoring and this challenging can also be exploited to give the challenging player to recover. IMO this smartphone involving and the whole thread here is a bad idea. May work in other kind of sports and how they got played, but in Badminton I see here only problems. For the players, for the spectators and also for the schedule of the tournament when errors of the phone happen.

    @pcll99 I want to here your thoughts about these issues. You had an idea and here are two problems to solve despite if you use an S24, Iphone 15 or Honor Magic6Pro. It would be fair if you reply to these problems.
     
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  18. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    thanks, @ucantseeme

    First Problem

    7. If all three of the following are exactly at 115cm above the ground, camera lense distortion should not be a problem for present purposes. (I am just speculating.)

    (i) the 200MP HP 2 Wide-angle Camera and the 12MP Ultra Wide Camera (of Galaxy S24)
    (ii) the acrylic plate showing the thin red line in front of the smartphone
    (iii) the tip (or the top) of the feather the player is holding in her hand

    [​IMG]

    8. Again, the above paragraph is just my own speculation. Trial runs and tests will be conducted to confirm the above.

    9. If paragraph No. 7 is incorrect, hopefully the smartphone can correct it. [Edit 4 March 2024: I think the 200MP HP 2 Wide-angle camera together with the 12 MP Ultra Wide Camera will autocorrect the distortion. I am not sure what the optical zoom cameras do. Only single cameras have obvious distortions, right?]

    10. If all of above is incorrect or not feasible, I still believe the smartphone will provide valuable assistance to the service judge or the referee.

    Second Problem

    11. I was thinking of this. The smartphone will show 'Fault' instanteously on the screen. The service judge will see it. That's it.
     
    #18 pcll99, Jan 25, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2024
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  19. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    So the service judges should be replace by phones which also need maintenance during the tour by a specialist or a person who controls the units. I personally doubt that there is any financial advantage for the bwf. How many phones should exist, what about manipulating these for bets?

    What about double motions by the server, standing on the line, not hitting the cork, not both feet touching the ground? These are also all faults which need to be called in the service situation.

    Why do you want to use a smartphone for this task? What is the real advantage to have expensive hardware, need to have a specific software which costs to develop instead of a guy who earns more or less just a few bugs to even out costs for hotel and food?
     
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  20. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    The phones will not replace service judge. The phones are there to assist the service judge. I think there should be two phones in a match. Just guessing at this stage.

    BWF will invite the major smartphone makers to tender: Samsung, Huawei, Xiaomi, Oppo, Meizu, Sony, Vivo etc. Due to the successes of Tai TY, badminton is now an extremely popular sport in Taiwan; Foxconn maybe able to convince Apple to join the fray; just kidding :)

    There will be a beauty contest. The judges of this beauty contest will be the badminton referees, umpires, service judges, players/coaches, BWF officials, etc.

    Each contestant smartphone system will be scored based on a number of factors: ease of setting up, ease of operation during the competition, maintenance, accuracies, financial costs, referree's oversight, etc. Meizu might use four phones, Samsung just two, while Xiaomi can do it with just one phone. I don't know.

    At the end of the beauty contest, the winner will sign a 3-year contract with BWF (with sponsorship deal of course).

    Trial run at Super 500 events first; if all goes well, then Super 750, etc. Just like American and Korean baseballs.

    To answer your questions specifically:

    [1] The phones will not replace the service judge. They are there to assist the service judge.

    [2] I like to think of this idea as a source of revenue for BWF. The smartphone makers should pay BWF money.

    [3] I think there should be two phones in a match - one for each side.

    [4] the same safeguards as those used in Football for VAR, in Tennis for Hawk-eye, in badminton for Instant Replay, in baseball for ABS, etc. In addition, the player should be able to challenge the service fault call by the service judge to the referee.

    [5] I think the 3-year contract should deal with service height of 115cm only. If at the end of the 3-year contract, the artificial intelligence chip in Galaxy S27 (or whatever flagship phones from Huawei or Xiaomi) can deal with those issues, then we can have another beauty contest. But for now, the human service judges have to deal with them.

    [6] Fairness is the overriding interest in any sports. Justice must be done and must be seen to be done. Making money from the sponsorship is of secondary interest. Seeing more drama on TV is also nice for the fans. The service judges can now earn an extra two bucks for operating those smartphones. Isn't this a win-win-win for everybody?
     
    #20 pcll99, Jan 25, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2024

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