Disappointing Order of Play

[robin7]

I think BWF should learn from Tennis Association how to become big in the world. There are many areas that the BWF should be improved. First, the BWF should give up the entries according to National Identity for each players and let them enter to play by individual.
With regards for the surdiman cup, they should set up a rule and not change all the time whenever they want, just be more professional.
The most important that there always people who cannot judge the call right. BWF should follow tennis where they should set up a cam and replay the point with slow motion to show the exact position fo shuttle landing and let the players has 3 chances to challenge the calls in three sets when they think the shuttle is in while the line judges call out. It avoids the things happened in Hong Kong Open 2006 where Taufik walked out of the court and accused of line judge misjudge the call. It also avoided the All China games in 2006 where the Wang chen from Hong Kong gave up playing because the chinese line judges call out when the shuttle is actually in or vice versa in order to make China team won. BWF please catch up with Tennis to make it big in the world and get more people attention. The most important, present more money prizes to the winner. This is so little when compared with Tennis.

Tennis is way ahead of badminton in many aspects such as prize money, camera replay system, match statistics, TV coverage etc.

Talking about prize money, Wimbledon 2007 for 5 events totaled to £11,282,710 while All England 2007 amounted to only USD200,000. Prize money in Tennis, Wimbledon, for instance, keeps on increasing every year. Look at All England, for example, it has remained unchanged in the past ten years in prize money. I think that's the main reason why badminton is less popular than tennis in countries outside Asia.

Instant replay system has been implemented in gymnastics and has made judging more transparent. The Hawk-Eye replay system has made its debut in tennis since last US Open. When will badminton follow suit?

Match statistics in tennis is more informative and comprehensive than those in badminton. We don't see the fastest smash and the longest rally being recorded in badminton's match statistics, do we?

In terms of TV coverage, tennis has it broadcasted thru TV on all the Grand Slams and other master series since round 1 till the finals. Tennis even has the tournament previews such as Legends of Wimbledon, Wimbledon Classic and so on. Badminton, on the other hand, only has it broadcasted quarterfinals onwards on major tournaments such as All England and World Championship.

There are a lot more that BWF has to do in order to prevent badminton from being removed from Olympics in the future.

 

[pjswift]

This is the best opinion given in this thread and how come no one have agreed??

I too think random draw would solve any unfairness on either side and would bring more surprises to the tournament.

Regardless of the playing order, I think we must not forgotten that SC is a team event, the TEAM that has the strongest strength deserve to win (which China does) and not the draw.

Did the random draw for the SC final bring more surprises to the tournament? CHN is expected to win even if MS were played first. Ask any fan what they look forward to most and chances are the answer would be the LD-TH clash because it does not happen often in SS and TEAM tournaments are about the only opportunities to have these two meet. Already LCW-TH and LCW-PG matches did not materialise and that is bad enough.The only consolation is the LCW-LD match.
Randomness is fairest but may not deliver the sparkle. As we know,that resulted in disappointment to most fans in this SC. The real measure of a tournament's success is the quality of its best matches and we know that is likely to come from the top MS because the kind of badminton they play is out of this world.

 

[hcyong]

The following is the regulation for Thomas and Uber Cups. Note the importance placed on S1 and S2 (S1 is always the first match, and S2 is at the least the 3rd match). Singles must also be played in order while for doubles, the second pair can play before the first. Also, if a player is involved in two matches, he/she must play the singles match first.

14. ORDER OF PLAY
14.1 There are eight permissible orders of play:
14.1.1 First singles - first doubles - second singles - second doubles - third singles
14.1.2 First singles - second doubles - second singles - first doubles - third singles
14.1.3 First singles - second singles - first doubles - third singles - second doubles
14.1.4 First singles - second singles - second doubles - third singles - first doubles
14.1.5 First singles - second singles - third singles - first doubles - second doubles
14.1.6 First singles - second singles - third singles - second doubles - first doubles
14.1.7 First singles - first doubles - second singles - third singles – second doubles
14.1.8 First singles - second doubles - second singles - third singles – first doubles.
14.2Determining order of play
14.2.1 Orders of play 14.1.1 to 14.1.8 will be considered in turn and the first order of play will be used which has
no player playing in two consecutive matches or playing doubles before singles.
14.2.2 If all eight orders of play, 14.1.1 to 14.1.8 result in a player playing in two consecutive matches or playing
doubles before singles, order of play 14.1.5 will be used.
14.3 Any player participating in two matches is entitled to a minimum interval of 30 minutes between them.

 

[hcyong]

Did the random draw for the SC final bring more surprises to the tournament? CHN is expected to win even if MS were played first. Ask any fan what they look forward to most and chances are the answer would be the LD-TH clash because it does not happen often in SS and TEAM tournaments are about the only opportunities to have these two meet. Already LCW-TH and LCW-PG matches did not materialise and that is bad enough.The only consolation is the LCW-LD match.
Randomness is fairest but may not deliver the sparkle. As we know,that resulted in disappointment to most fans in this SC. The real measure of a tournament's success is the quality of its best matches and we know that is likely to come from the top MS because the kind of badminton they play is out of this world.

Either it's a random draw, or the team managers agree on the order. How else would you decide the order? If the tournament director decides on the order, accusations can fly. Even though theorectically the match order is inconsequential, but psychologically, it can make a difference.

 

[nanofans]

The key points are two:

1) to make it more interesting for people to watch;
..... 1.1 ) to prevent one-sided early ends of the competition
2) to be fair to both teams.

Having these two points in mind. I propose the new rule for deciding the order of play.

1) first match will be decided by both teams list. Two teams submit their wish-list of the order, and mark the 1st watch as 5 points, then the 2nd as 4 points, the 3rd as 3 points, the 4th as 2 points, the 5th as 1 point. Then multiply two teams results, the first match will be decided by the event with the maximum points. For example, if Indonesia wants the following order:
MS, XD, MD, WD, WS
then Indonesia writes:
MS: 5
XD: 4
MD: 3
WD: 2
WS: 1
On the China side, they want WS, WD, MD, XD, MS, then China writes:
WS: 5
WD: 4
MD: 3
XD: 2
MS: 1
Then multiply two, we have:
MD: 9 points
XD: 8
WD: 8
MS: 5
WS: 5

Since the MD has the maximum points, so it will be the 1st match to play. Which is the fair result for both team.

But There are a lot of tricks to submit their orders. If Indonesia figures out China's order. Then for Indonesia, there is no hope to play MS first. But if they adjust their order as
MS: 4 instead of 5
XD: 5 instead of 4
MD: 3
WD: 2
WS: 1

Then XD will be 10 points after multiplication. So it will be the first match to launch.

Anyway, even though there are tricks to play (which tests each team's wisdom), but it is still guarantee that each team can prevent the least wanted match to be played first.

2) then the 2nd match will be decided by the loser of the first match (not by the multiplication order list any more). For example, after Indonesia lost their XD, then they can decide which event to be played next. That way, we can help the weaker team to balance the fighting, which will be more interesting to the spectators and TV viewers also.

Be noted that there is no help for the players who play more than 1 event. Why the order should be good for the team having players playing more events. That's unfair. That encourages the lack of position depth. If you are short of hands, then you could protect yourself if you are smart, otherwise, you should be attacked by your opponents.

Instead of curretnly that letting the God throws the dice, and then veto God's will. The 2 sides of the competiton can fully determine the order of play through the competition of their strategy.

The ideal Sudirman final could go as:

1) XD played first, and INA lost so INA can pick the next match
2) then INA decided to play MS which is their biggest hope and taufik won
.....2.1) if Lindan won MS, then it was still INA's turn to pick the next
.....2.2) INA picked MD, and China won 3:0
3) then China decided to play WS and won
4) then INA decided to play MD but still lost. China won 3:1

So the final would include:
1) if lindan won, then XD, MS(lindan won), and MD,
2) if taufik won, then XD, MS(taufik won), WS and MD, and China won 3-1, be noted that if Taufik won, there would be WS, if Lindan won, there would be no WS.

Both China and Indoneia have nothing to complain. That's the order they ordered.

Theoriotically it works. But that's not the way professional games played.
Hours before the game, players should be prepared from their diet to their warm-ups strictly according to the schedule. Getting into the mood too early or too late? Sorry, you are dead unless you are fighting amateurs.
The worst case under your game rule would be a continuously warming-up LD or TH up to 3~4 hours! Imagine that.

 

[beauty]

They had this stupid rule whereby order of play is determined by draw. So the 5 matches are drawn one by one from a box, MS happened to be last.

Previously, each team manager can suggest an order of play, and the finalized one will be determined based on whether a team has players who play more than one match, so that the player can have sufficient rest in between matches.

It is still like that. When team managers give the names of the players, they also suggest the order of play. If there is disagreement, then is the draw. So it just happened that MS should be last.

 

[beauty]

The key points are two:

1) to make it more interesting for people to watch;
..... 1.1 ) to prevent one-sided early ends of the competition
2) to be fair to both teams.

Having these two points in mind. I propose the new rule for deciding the order of play.

1) first match will be decided by both teams list. Two teams submit their wish-list of the order, and mark the 1st watch as 5 points, then the 2nd as 4 points, the 3rd as 3 points, the 4th as 2 points, the 5th as 1 point. Then multiply two teams results, the first match will be decided by the event with the maximum points. For example, if Indonesia wants the following order:
MS, XD, MD, WD, WS
then Indonesia writes:
MS: 5
XD: 4
MD: 3
WD: 2
WS: 1
On the China side, they want WS, WD, MD, XD, MS, then China writes:
WS: 5
WD: 4
MD: 3
XD: 2
MS: 1
Then multiply two, we have:
MD: 9 points
XD: 8
WD: 8
MS: 5
WS: 5

Since the MD has the maximum points, so it will be the 1st match to play. Which is the fair result for both team.

But There are a lot of tricks to submit their orders. If Indonesia figures out China's order. Then for Indonesia, there is no hope to play MS first. But if they adjust their order as
MS: 4 instead of 5
XD: 5 instead of 4
MD: 3
WD: 2
WS: 1

Then XD will be 10 points after multiplication. So it will be the first match to launch.

Anyway, even though there are tricks to play (which tests each team's wisdom), but it is still guarantee that each team can prevent the least wanted match to be played first.

2) then the 2nd match will be decided by the loser of the first match (not by the multiplication order list any more). For example, after Indonesia lost their XD, then they can decide which event to be played next. That way, we can help the weaker team to balance the fighting, which will be more interesting to the spectators and TV viewers also.

Be noted that there is no help for the players who play more than 1 event. Why the order should be good for the team having players playing more events. That's unfair. That encourages the lack of position depth. If you are short of hands, then you could protect yourself if you are smart, otherwise, you should be attacked by your opponents.

Instead of curretnly that letting the God throws the dice, and then veto God's will. The 2 sides of the competiton can fully determine the order of play through the competition of their strategy.

The ideal Sudirman final could go as:

1) XD played first, and INA lost so INA can pick the next match
2) then INA decided to play MS which is their biggest hope and taufik won
.....2.1) if Lindan won MS, then it was still INA's turn to pick the next
.....2.2) INA picked MD, and China won 3:0
3) then China decided to play WS and won
4) then INA decided to play MD but still lost. China won 3:1

So the final would include:
1) if lindan won, then XD, MS(lindan won), and MD,
2) if taufik won, then XD, MS(taufik won), WS and MD, and China won 3-1, be noted that if Taufik won, there would be WS, if Lindan won, there would be no WS.

Both China and Indoneia have nothing to complain. That's the order they ordered.

The problem is with tv planning. They would never go for coverage without actually knowing who and when is going to play. Mostly it is their decision which court/which match they are going to televise. So quite often in the hall it is necessary to move ties or matches from court to court just because tv. And we can again speak - is it fair to other nations ? Some matches from lower divisions were actually more interesting than one sided matches of top group.

 

[kwun]

"National identity" cannot be undone by BWF. It is us fans that strongly identify a player by his nationality. Additionally, the fund going around badminton is not high and therefore it has to be state-supported.

These are factors beyong the control of BWF. I believe that BWF has already taken the first step by removing the "country separation rule" in the drawing process.

the solution then is to "somehow" increase the price money. if badminton tournament has US$1mil+ prize money, we will very soon see a lot of motivated independent players into the badminton scene, and potentially see the beginning of the end of state-base training.

but as you see, i have to put a quote around the "somehow", much easier said than done.

 

[Wong8Egg]

Did the random draw for the SC final bring more surprises to the tournament? CHN is expected to win even if MS were played first. Ask any fan what they look forward to most and chances are the answer would be the LD-TH clash because it does not happen often in SS and TEAM tournaments are about the only opportunities to have these two meet. Already LCW-TH and LCW-PG matches did not materialise and that is bad enough.The only consolation is the LCW-LD match.
Randomness is fairest but may not deliver the sparkle. As we know,that resulted in disappointment to most fans in this SC. The real measure of a tournament's success is the quality of its best matches and we know that is likely to come from the top MS because the kind of badminton they play is out of this world.

Fans pay ticket to go to watch a sport tournament and not a movie, hint that in the individual event we don't even know who are the finalists until the day before, why should we make exception to the team event to pre-order matches to please fans???

I wouldn't allow this to happen too if I am LYB, and to eliminate that slim chance for Indo to win, cause LYB's task is simply to win the tournament and nothing else. But if TH did beat LD in the first match who knows what would happen to the Chinese and Indo team's morale, and that certainly can bring surprises. That's why I suggest random draw and I think that is most fair for teams and fans.

 

[wirre]

I call you cry babies

I can understand that some (most) would want to see a LD vs Taufik clash.
But for the tournament, honor and glory of Sudirman do you think a WS as a decider would've been better? If playing MS earlier anyone could've won a spectacular match that in the end meant nothing for the championship.....

Now I think the draw was quite good for INA and the spectators. *If* INA had managed to get two points (from XD and MD) then there would've been the titans sealing the whole championship.

This is how i would rank the chances in a decider:
WS and WD, barring injury, secure win for China. XD and MD, open for upsets but given expected strength and recent forms China as clear favourites. MS, usually pretty much an even game, but due to displayed performance during SC I think most would hold Taufik as favourite.

Of course the dream draw for INA would've been 1) MD/XD 2) XD/MD 3) MS . With a very small but still possible chance to get a 3-0 win. But as soon as they lose one of this three it is all over.....and then everyone would be complaining about boring and meaningless finish with China destroying INA in WD and WS

 

[Angelou]

I think LYB is quite demanding for the Chinese player. Even thought Lin Dan lost to LCW, so what, China team won anyway. Why LYB wants China team to be perfect (5-0). Because of his loss to LCW, he is thinking of giving up Lin Dan to play in the final. What is going on his mind. I know he wants China team to be sure win in Surdiman Cup. Because he need face when return back to China after wining. He is kinds of selfish. He needs to change his altitude for being so bossy and dictator. For example, last year in December when I went to Guangzhou to see the badminton matches. Whenever the players won, they had to walk to his chair and bowed to him and for those who lost would be punished. It seems like he is a god. Tell me, Mr. LYB, how many time you had won during your badminton career. According to the records, you had not won so many. You should not put so much pressure on China team. Chen Hong is right. When he retired from China teams. He said he finds the real joy of playing badminton not just winning and winning. Now he can be more relaxed for playing badminton. I feel happy for him. As for Lin Dan, if he is not happy, he can apply to immigrate to Hong Kong and play for Hong Kong. Wang chen does not like LYB either when she played in China. I felt happy for her to win Indonesia, Asia Championship. The winnings must slap the face of LYB. The other thing I don't understand when playing Surdiman Cup. Why LYB was coaching the players instead of the coaches who does the job for every and each tournaments. Does it mean that he does not trust the rest of the coaches? I dont like his acts for being for bossy.

Well Terrence, first off please don't take any offense in what I have to say. These are just my thoughts. But When you talk about bowing and punishment, I believe that was the traditional way that students were taught in China. To respect your teachers and elders. Punishment is more of a motivation in my opinion. Your there to be the best and learn. And thus if you can't handle the pressure, then there's really no point in you being in the Chinese team. Attaining a high standard is what the goal is. If you don't win, then your pretty much forced to reflect on it. which is the purpose of punishment. And really, these players are receiving training from some of the best coaches out there. Bowing down to them, is a sign of respect and not slavery. If there isn't respect between the coach and the player, then the coach can care less about the player. But if the player respects the coach and vice versa. Then they'll work hard TOGETHER, in order to attain their goals.

Lin Dan tries hard and respects his coaches. And that's probably part of why there was such a dispute. Lin Dan, get to play all these matches, but what about all the other team members who train hard. Shouldn't they get a chance? If Lin Dan isn't performing, then isn't this a chance to give to others the opportunity? It can be quite heart quenching for coaches.

Being able to listen to criticism is a virtue. Not many people can take it in because it's pretty much saying "you suck". But it is also saying here's a fault now what are you going to do about it? The hard part about criticism is that people often use a harsh tone with it as well, but that's life. And I think that's what the Chinese players do. They listen and take in the criticism, despite the tone. They keep learning from their mistakes even if they win. And your right ! winning isn't everything, learning from what happened and acting upon is also quite significant.

On a different point, Chen Hong got his training from the Chinese coaching staff. though he can relax and play the way he wants, he no longer does the kind of training he did in the Chinese Camp. And thus, I think the results are quite obvious. Though he may have the mental side of his game, he doesn't have the same physical side he did in the past. And if he doesn't have much physical to work with then his options will be limited as well. And so you can't really say Chen Hong is better off the way he is. You can say he's happier and that's great don't get me wrong. But in terms of results, you might see him spike here and there but that depends how he prepares.

 

[will_kit]

Lin Dan doesn't look too happy

He looks like that in all tournament...I never expect this guy to even moved his mouth even a couple of mm...he looks like a vampire even when he is lifting a champion trophy....I think he should be coached to smile....