Hawk Eye Challenge System has Arrived!

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by Tactim, Apr 4, 2014.

  1. Littlejohn

    Littlejohn Regular Member

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    Pcll99's comments regarding the courts being relocated isnt correct, at all events where Hawkeye or a similar system will in use, then the courts should remain put, at least as far as BWF regulations state

    Im not going to even attempt to get involved in the techniocal side of this discussion but would add that from what we saw at the AE, the system being used had a huge screen alongside the technicians with tremendous zoom and slow-mo capability, to the degree that the flight to be shown millimeter by millimeter and the image enlarged by something like 20 fold. Such was the quality of the image that the spin was clearly visible...as was the distortion in shuttle shape on impact with the coiurt surface.

    Not sure if this is what is going to be used but it certainly looked very very impressive
     
  2. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    ^ That's just the instant video replay that BWF has been using for the past half a year. And it does seem to be economical and effective enough to question the added costs of Hawk Eye.
     
  3. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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  4. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    Wow, just turned on ahsan/set v kim/yoo and there was a challenge. I think the system must have a problem!!
    It was 2-1 in the second set. The shuttle was lofted high by kim and dropped out at the back line almost vertically(90 degrees to the floor) but on hawkeye replay the shuttle came in sharp and angle (20 degrees to the floor) the imprint left was not consistent with the shuttle falling vertically and the mapped flight was totally wrong.
     
  5. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    Again same match 18-17 and the shuttle challenged side line, shuttle comes i at completely the wrong angle. It is not even close to showing what the flight of the shuttle was, strange
     
  6. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    Sounds like human errors, and not fault of machines.
     
  7. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Of course it's human error. Humans designed them. Machines are never wrong. ;)
     
  8. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    I tell you, badminton is a huge challenge for Hawk-Eye not because of darker indoor lighting, nor because of faster projectile speeds, but because the shuttle can have irregular and side spin that makes the flight and trajectory very unpredictable.
     
  9. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    does a shuttle travel in a straight line viewing from the top?
     
  10. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    yeah have a look at them both if you get the chance. That first one at 2-1 (second set) the trajectory was so wrong that you can't believe the system, something is fishy. Certainly the animation is completely wrong.
    If it can't predict what angle the shuttle is coming in at then close calls are going to be a disaster, it just seems to use the same type of shaded area no matter how it falls or what angle
     
  11. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Not if there's heavy spin on it. I'm sure in the past you've either hit a shot either on purpose or inadvertently with heavy slice. Or maybe your opponent has. And you or your opponent think it's out, but it hooks back and lands in. This is just oneextreme example.
     
  12. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    I am still not sure why they would have a problem with that, given they track the shuttle with a good few cameras and a fairly decent fps.
     
  13. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Oh and I forgot another important reason why Hawk-Eye may not work in badminton. Not only is the shuttle light at 5g, but it's also a *high-drag* projectile because of the skirt.

    Unlike in tennis and soccer, both of these properties mean that the air around it can have very significant effects on it's flight and trajectory, namely spin and drift, making it much more difficult to predict.

    Now how would Hawk-Eye handle drift? So the computer has to have 2 completely separate sets of data to analyze and predict: one for shuttles going away from your court and another for shuttles coming towards your court?
     
    #73 visor, Apr 11, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2014
  14. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    With multiple cameras from different angles watching the shuttle through it's flight, the system puts these images together for answer. Are we back to forgetting how the system works?
     
  15. phili

    phili Regular Member

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    Because Hawk Eye seems to map the flight path only in 2d, I don't think the animation is meant to show the actual path. Such an animation is nicer to look at than a picture saying in or out.
     
  16. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Yes, but now that we know it's not super high frame rate of 27000fps, it's interpolating and predicting in between, based on normal flight. But the system doesn't know when there's spin or not, how would it know instantaneously on the fly which set of data to use?
     
  17. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    hawkeye is only 60 fps, right?
     
  18. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    When the shuttle curves it is in the air for a relatively long time with all the cameras hawkeye will be logging a lot of positions to be able to predict the last 0.03seconds or whatever no? I mean as accurate as if it were flying straight or diagonally
     
  19. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    1000fps.........
     
  20. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Hmmm, I suppose. Perhaps going thru these growing pains is necessary for it and it's operators to learn how to use it properly for badminton shuttle's flight behavior. The prediction can only improve from now on. :)
     

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