Hawk Eye Challenge System has Arrived!

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by Tactim, Apr 4, 2014.

  1. Littlejohn

    Littlejohn Regular Member

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    For some reason I have faith that BWF will work with Hawkeye and continue to perfect the system and so feel that its a 'done deal' Its here to stay so lets learn to embrace it, I can remember heated discussions about the rally point system ruining the game all those years ago.....yet its now accepted.

    My point is, do we actually need Hawkeye, especially bearing in mind the huge cost per court? Has anybody got information on the number of times challenges have been made.....and how many of those challenges have overturned a decision.

    I have worked courtside for about 20 years and yes, I have seen some horrendous line calls, but I have to say that 99.5% of the call I have seen have been correct when shown on TV or the large screen. So basically are BWF catering for a real need here or just pampering to TV and technology
     
  2. AlanY

    AlanY Regular Member

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    even one single bad call at a crucial moment can ruin someone's career for good!
    haven't you just made the case for the hawkeye?
     
    #142 AlanY, Jul 1, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2014
  3. speedyJT

    speedyJT Regular Member

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    I think the Hawk-Eye system is a good thing for the sport.

    The first tests with the thumbs up/ thumbs down weren't really good and it wasn't clear for everyone what the final decision was.

    But now, with the animation of the exact impact point of the cork/shuttle, visible and clearly to understand for everybody, it's a very good thing.

    When the costs of the system are THAT high, then maybe it would be enough to use it at SuperSeries tournaments (and OG, WC, and so on..).

    Especially as a player I think it's nice to know that you have a chance to complain a clearly wrong line call decision.

    Even when there aren't soo many bad line calls, it's sometimes THAT single one what can change a match or is responsible for the win/loss.
     
  4. mater

    mater Regular Member

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    I wonder how it will play out with the 5X11 format. Perhaps 1 call per game?
     
  5. Littlejohn

    Littlejohn Regular Member

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    The point I was trying to make is that is it worth spending £30K+ per court to stop one poor call, especially when there is already an 'over ride' call available to umpires, especially when the accuracy of the system is in doubt. Bring down the cost and improve that accuracy and I will be totally behind the idea, but at the moment I feel their are fasr more pressing areas that could do with an injection of cash of that magnitude
     
  6. RedShuttle

    RedShuttle Regular Member

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    The Hawk-Eye system still looks suspicious to me.

    It should be noted that the animation is just a rendition of what the Hawk-Eye system thinks, but not necessarily the reality.

    I wish that they superimpose the Hawk-Eye animations onto actual video replays. That would be more convincing.
     
  7. Tactim

    Tactim Regular Member

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    Really? I think actually Hawkeye has actually been looking very consistent and that it's been quite accurate. Keep in mind the point of reality vs hawkeye's rendition is a point players have accepted and decided the benefit outweighs the benefit of morning at all.

    The only point which needs work is the animation of the shuttle to the shot doesnt change from smash, drive, clear, lift. But that is extra fancy parts of hawkeye which are not worth the money unless you have money to burn.

    Interesting you mention superimposing hawkeye animation into actual replays because that is EXACTLY what they have changed with tennis in the last several months and it looks fantastic. I'll have to dig up a clip for an example...
     
  8. RedShuttle

    RedShuttle Regular Member

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    Chine Open WS Semi-Final between SN and LX, Game 2 at 17:16.

    HK1.jpg HK2.png

    The right call was made. But to me, the apparent discrepancy was too big for comfort.
     
  9. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    Nice photos. That is around 35mm discrepancy with almost no forward movement to contend with just dropping almost straight down. Hawkeye doesn't work in accuracy terms that is no secret but 35mm is a long way in badminton, that sort of discrepancy is is really taking the p+33. Really pointless system for making calls accurately, still ok for entertainment though.
     
  10. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    I think oldhand has explained the technical issues in post #117.

    I watched some of the live streams and it did appear some players had issues with the lighting. Not the "bad-carpenter syndrome" but what looked like real issues. This same could have affected the performance of HawkEye.
     
  11. Yousor

    Yousor Regular Member

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    I found some weird instance of HE.
    Watch the latest China Open:
    http://youtu.be/Fs2xWJiiQ10?t=32m05s
    http://youtu.be/Fs2xWJiiQ10?t=32m37s Pause this immediately as I am too lazy to make a screenshot, mea culpa.

    It is not about the length of the shuttle regarding the baseline. It is about where HE places the shuttle with respect to the singles sideline.
    The shuttle landed plum on the singles sideline, but HE places it like 10 cm nearer to the doubles sideline.

    For there analysis do they sacrifice resolution in one direction to increase processing speed or something like that?


    Another thing I noticed is the absence of the speedmeter since HE was introduced. I like to see the smashspeed.
     
  12. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    Yep here it is
    hawk1.PNG hawk2.PNG

    Red dots show where the shuttle landed. Scaling the drawing I found this mistake to be over 100mm!!
     
  13. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    Totally agree
     
  14. RedShuttle

    RedShuttle Regular Member

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    Good pick-up.

    Considering that was the first game in the session, this is really alarming. Did they calibrate the set up properly before each session?

    BWF/Hawk-Eye should employ visual confirmation ASAP. Even if not showing to the viewers, they should use visual confirmation to monitor their set-up.

    While pin-point accuracy is not expected, actions must be taken when laughable mistakes like that occurred.

    To be fair, I thought the Hawk-Eye performance in the finals was not as bad as it was in previous sessions. But that mistake stood out like a sore thumb.
     
  15. RedShuttle

    RedShuttle Regular Member

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    Shocking Revelation!

    http://tv.cntv.cn/video/VSET100150750774/890536a0725c4f1db11e660beb1390ee

    Be patient with the advertisements. Some Hawk-Eye staff from UK will explain in English.

    Basically, the so-called "Hawk-Eye" system in badminton is no more than instant replay judged by human operators. And that decision is then represented by animation.

    This is obviously not what we understood from the Hawk-Eye system for tennis, as confirmed by the Hawk-Eye staff in the video.

    I'd say that please stop fooling us with cartoon clips, just give us the beef, i.e. the slow-mo replay.
     
  16. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    What a find Redshuttle but WTF!
    I am baffled, So why are BWF paying Hawkeye massive money for this? it's hardly specialist, just buy the cameras themselves. And also seing how the system actually works why the hell are they screwing up the virtual recreation so bad then?

    As much as I would like to see the actual replay instead of the virtual one, I suppose there is always going to be one shot right on the cusp that everyone will not agree with what they see.
     
  17. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    http://www.bwfbadminton.org/news_item.aspx?id=82725

    "The world-famous tracking system used in many sports to determine line calls has made its badminton debut in the MetLife BWF World Superseries"

    "This includes Hawk-Eye’s popular graphics implementation which pinpoints the exact spot on which a ball – or in badminton’s case, a shuttle – lands."

    "We have been testing various systems and we have determined Hawk-Eye to be the most trusted and reliable option by which to track line-call challenges,"

    "Since we introduced instant reviews in last year’s World Superseries Finals, many people have been asking when we would take the next step – add the graphics which they are accustomed to seeing in tennis and other sports. Now, with Hawk-Eye on board, we are ready to progress to that stage"

    For the last quote, they are kidding themselves if they think they have progressed to another stage. It's just the same thing but with a really inaccurate made up animation operator clicked.
    As for the other quotes they are kinda misleading us no?
     
  18. RedShuttle

    RedShuttle Regular Member

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    They should have said:

     
  19. RedShuttle

    RedShuttle Regular Member

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    As I have said in the very first page of this thread, I am okay with using only instant replay. And I fully accept any human errors associated with that.

    If they do use animation, I'd like to see that they just highlight the line and the point of contact, as judged by the operator, on the actual video replay. There is no need for anything fancier than that.
     
  20. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    Also from that video, it is just 120fps cameras!!(8 of them per court)
    They should save there money and just borrow a few iphones every tourney even they can do 120fps.:D
     

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