^^That's fine..^^ ..send them & get them exposed as much as possible. Btw, the younger players, i meant, the ones which have enough experience but haven't had any chance to compete in big team events. Players like Andre, Tommy, WD pairs, MD pairs (Yoke, Fran etc., they've been around a while). If PBSI don't send them and actually let them play in big team events like this, when will they get their chance??
Jeez... why do you keep bringing up China?? They have to GET to the final first >_>. Competition... you know... putting up their best fight against the other team ? The other team isn't always China, there are a lot of other teams here... I thought everyone had already decided that China was going to win. So if that's so clear cut, why even bring them up when I mention "competition"? I have no idea what you're talking about in the first bit. The audience benefits from star players. This is the world mixed teams champs. I think the paying audience will be expecting to see the best of the best. Are you saying it would be a missed opportunity for the younger players? I think it's already been stated many times that there are much more suitable places for up and comers to be getting experience. The younger players will just get wiped off the court here. Where's the experience in that? This isn't a training camp, and it shouldn't be treated as such.
^^Why not??..^^ ..Yes, sure, China is there. And sooner or later other teams must face CHN. Yes, you mentioned competition and i brought up the example of INA's 2 last SC results when they met CHN. Talk about competition...If you want competition, why not put up 2 or at least 1 point??.. In the first bit, which i was referring to my earlier post, it basically asks how would sending veteran players or reaching the Final round, losing or winning it, benefit the veteran players? And esp. how it will benefit those younger players who probably won't even get a chance to play? In other words, what's the gain? Not asking how it will benefit the "audience". Of course, the audience will always benefit from watching the pro players play. If the team events are not training camp, where else would they get the experience of playing in a team event? Talk about getting wiped off the court, do you remember what happened to INA's last 2 SC results in the Finals?? And no, they weren't young, inexperienced players. Like i mentioned, if one is going by the results of INA's younger players, then i think it's safe to say they have little chance of competing or even playing in the team events. It'll always gonna be Taufik and the veteran players.
What's that got to do with anything? As long as they gave it their best, then it couldn't have been any other way. The point here, is that if they don't put up there best, they could certainly regret it later. I'm NOT talking about China, I'm talking about losing before they reach their goal of the finals. For the sake of competition and for their own sake, they need to put in their best. So personally... if you were playing international badminton. You wouldn't want to make it to the finals? Glory for the country, glory for the players who made it happen. Why should it benefit the younger players? This tournament isn't FOR them, unless they can prove they're the best in the country. If they want to get better,then they have PLENTY of other opportunities to do so. Not here. It's not about getting better here. It's about competition. If every country just put up a bunch of second stringers (sure that's not quite the case), you'd hardly be able to call it the world mixed teams champs would you? So the audience doesn't matter now? I'm pretty sure the audience is half the reason the tournament even happens in the first place... Thomas/Uber Cup. There's plenty of space there. Playing as a number 3, is not like playing as a number 1. If the best players got wiped off the court, the younger players would likely not last 10 minutes... How on earth are they going to learn anything from that... what is the point... How is being obliterated in the one or two matches they get in this tournament going to help them get better results in individual competition? How is it going to help them improve as players? To be honest I'm not really fussed what Indonesia chooses to do. Good luck to them either way ! I just don't see why you'd send less than the best. And I don't see how it could help anyone.
Hey I like doing this though, haven't you noticed ? Indonesia can send whoever they want, and if they really think it will benefit the younger players, then good luck to them! I'll still support them. I just think it's a silly decision. ctjcad may be right. I may be completely wrong. It's just how I feel about it.
.....anyway..I will be there and cheering for them....thank you for your support though....all the ebst to INA team
So.. - Basically you're underestimating the INA's younger players??.. Regret what?? They tried it twice (2005 & 2007), with their best and experienced lineup and can't even get a point off of CHN.. - So, tell me, if this type of tournament is not for the younger, but somewhat experienced players, then what is?? What will qualify the younger players so they can earn their way to compete in the team event?? An Olympic title?? A World Championship title? An All-England title?? What will satisfy you?? What if the younger players don't reach those heights?? What if INA don't see another Taufik for another 8-10 yrs? Don't include them & keep on including Taufik and other veterans?? Like i mentioned, just imagine if Taufik & other veteran players are no longer playing. Who will they look for??.. - Younger players will definitely learn & improve from competing in such tough & pressure type team matches. Whatever they learn now, will benefit them in the future when they are asked to do so, again. Don't tell me an inexperienced players won't learn anything from losing. It's a gain on their part. That's the point. If you're Taufik and other veteran players, what is there to gain or learn?? IMO, it is not about sending the best or not. The reality is, INA doesn't have a realistic chance of winning the SC title, at least for this yr. So, rather than pursuing something that's unattainable (bringing back the trophy), for now, why not cultivate and build up the younger players' mental fortitude and experience. INA's future is with the younger players. They're the ones who will carry the torch and try their luck the next time they compete. This is merely a learning ground for them, to build up their experience and fortitude. If you don't give 'em a chance now, or early, when will they get the chance??
I might be underestimating them sure... but on what basis should I believe they can hold their own against the top players? Stop bringing up China. I already said that I'm talking about Indonesia's chances against the other countries. They made a goal to get to the final. Is that realistic if they aren't putting in their top team? It's kind of contradictory. Putting in a team for "experience" for the future generation. And yet aiming for the final?! I'm not saying they absolutely can't do it. But if they have a goal in mind, they could at least put in a real effort to make it happen. That's blowing things completely out of proportion. Performing well does not mean winning the Olympics. And no, I wouldn't base it on anything other than how the players have done in comparison to their team mates (the other choices). In comparison to Taufik for example, the others have undoubtedly performed poorly recently. Haha I don't think it matters what satisfies me . And why ask that question. Obviously achieving very little has earned them a spot in the team because that's exactly what has happened! Hmm... would you say Peter Gade should be left out of the Danish team? He's well past Taufik's age. I guess he must be taking up the spot of a future player as well is he? Ruining their hopes of ever making it in the badminton world... or something like that ... They could afford to in the European Mixed Teams, it's a different story here. The same applies to Indonesia. But apparently they are so confident they'll make it to the final they can take it easy. There are other opportunities. Thomas/Uber Cup (for the third time) is a much more reasonable place for them to get this experience, because chances are, with 3 singles and 2 doubles, they'll need to be called upon anyway. On top of that - playing at number 2 or 3 will still give them the pressure of performing for the nation, but likely place them against a more suitable opponent. Everyone learns from losing a well fought match. But not so much when you get wiped off the court in a matter of minutes. Being outplayed in every aspect does not really help to identify your faults. Nor would it do much for confidence. There are other places to lose that do not involve crushing the hopes of a nation. It's not about gaining! There's training (hey that rhymes), there's individual tournaments... heck, there are even club based team events that all these players have participated in! It's not like they have no team experience. It's not like they haven't felt pressure, and it's not like they haven't got any other chances! The top events, are for the top players! If you don't think there are enough other opportunities for lower ranked players to get team experience, then perhaps you should have a good chat to BWF. Very few countries in the entire tournament have a realistic chance of WINNING. At most 2 or 3... So according to you there is not much point in really even going. The point is not to strive to win. But to strive to do the best you possibly can. That may include winning, if you're say - China (duh - anything else would be a failure), or it may mean besting your previous effort. It's for national pride. Remember how much LCW's silver medal meant to Malaysia? Just like cricket, just like football, just like practically all other team sports. I can imagine the outcry if New Zealand sent an All Blacks team half made up of inexperienced players to the Rugby World Cup. If Badminton as a sport wants to be taken seriously. Then it's top events need to be taken seriously. And not, as you put it, a "learning ground". New Zealand rugby for example, uses the less important matches to give their up and coming players experience. The Sudirman Cup doesn't fall under "less important" in my books. If Indonesia wants to bring along second stringers for the smaller matches against weaker countries... go ahead. That's a good thing! But if you don't have the best for when you really need them, it's a team resigning themselves to failure.
Honestly, mister... Do you think INA juniors (come to think about it, they're not that 'junior' already) are THAT weak?
And do you think TH will give better opposition to a 100% LD? Heck, I can't even remember when was the last time he beat BCL.
I can't even remember the last time he beat china top 3 (LD, BCL, CJ). I guess in there lies our differences. To me its always about sending the best team possible, when it comes to represent one's nation. The juniors can make their marks and GP and SS tourney first and then have the privilege to represent the country. And seriously, years from now, TH will be usurped by his juniors. It's a question of WHEN not IF.
All in 2006... But things have changed. CJ and BCL's injuries have been getting worse in the past 3 years (remember what happened in last year's TC? ), while TH seem stabilized. I would say the current TH has good chance beating them. LD, of course, is a different story. But it's highly unlikely that he will reach his OG 08 level ever again. Against the AE/Swiss LD, TH should have some chance.
Well.. - I've a different take. By suggesting younger players to compete, they’re put in a position of playing w/a “nothing to lose” attitude. But by suggesting to put in the “best players” out there, basically they’re put in a position that “they are to win”, an “everything to lose” approach. Sure, that’s PBSI’s (as well as other top teams’) goal which is to get to the final. Not mine. I think that’s a pretty lofty goal considering other top baddy teams have been much improved & ready. Realistically, IMO, as I mentioned before, as long as INA can stay in the 1st group, for this yr, that’s already good enough. What the younger players learn and gain from this SC tourney, that they will build upon for their next big team event(s). - I asked that because you brought up the idea that the INA younger players don’t deserve a chance to play in this SC based on their accomplishment. And since you brought that up, all I’m looking for is what criteria(s) will satisfy your standard for them to deserve a spot in the national team? What would you base it on? If it’s based on how the players have done in comparison to their teammates, do you really think the current INA younger players’ outlook will improve in the future? (The tourneys i mentioned, i just brought those up as examples; nothing blown out of proportion). - Re Gade still playing for Denmark. Problem w/Denmark, in my view, is their lack of (young) talents. That could perhaps be the reason why they’ve been sending Gade & Jonassen and the other veteran MD pairs, for seemingly forever. I don’t really see it that way with INA. IMO, PBSI has more talented young players/pairs playing in the circuit already. It’s time to see them perform in high level team events. - They deserve to perform in Thomas & Uber Cup but not in Sudirman Cup?? Why?? Is one tourney more prestigious than the other? As far as I can see, both events require a team to get 3 points in order to win. Everyone is put in a spot to perform. - So, by not giving them an opportunity to play even if they get wiped out, it will help the players/pairs in the future? By not letting them lose, even in a matter of minutes, it will do much for their confidence? Let’s see how they’ll perform the next time they are being put in a spotlight or pressure type situation. - So, tell me what other team event opportunities out there will the younger players get a chance to perform in?? Club based team events vs. world class based team events? If it’s not about gaining, then please explain what will the veteran players gain by being sent numerous times? - What makes you think the younger players will not do or give the best they possibly can to win? Of course, there is a point in going. But you have to look at it realistically, at least I am. Frankly, do you see INA winning the SC this yr? For this yr, the point of them going is to give their younger, somewhat experienced players a chance to perform and get a taste of playing in the Sudirman Cup. - Personally, I always look at the realistic/overall chance. Always a hindsight to prepare and plan for the future. INA’s current veteran players have already had their time in the sun. It’s time to bring forth their younger, somewhat experienced players to the forefront and see what they can do. At the very least, you give them a chance to prove their worth. And at the very least, they have much more to gain by being involved & put in this type of situation & team events. ..If the younger, somewhat experienced players are not being sent/exposed to team events now, how will they have “the best team possible” in the future? Instead you’ll have a bunch of inexperienced players playing, for the first time in their lifetime, in a high level/world class team event. And if the juniors will need to make their marks in GP, SS tourneys first, how long do you think it will take?? 2, 4, 6, 8 or 10 more yrs. We've seen some of their accomplishments, so far, haven't we?? Of course, yrs from now, WHEN Taufik (and other veteran players) actually stops playing, the juniors will replace him. But then, what is there to talk about once Taufik & the other veteran players retire?? ..speaking of last yr's TC, all i remember is Taufik losing to Tanongsak P. from Thailand and Lee Hyun Il, both in straight games; fortunately for Taufik, he had teammates to bail the team out against the former..
Chris, if the juniors can't even handle the pressure and perform in GP and SS events....what are the chances they'll perform in high level/world class team event? The talented juniors will eventually surpass their senior, its a natural progression that'll happen. Just like Icuk replaces Liem Swie King, Ardy BW/Alan BK/JS/HS replacing Icuk, Hendrawan replacing them and so on.... Heck, even in pelatnas alone Simon have proven to be "lethal" against Taufik.
I'm possibly not talking about Sony (although he really hasn't been impressive at all lately). Simon and Tommy though would likely not stand a chance. Especially Tommy - just look at how Taufik himself destroyed him. Anyway I have been avoiding calling them INA juniors, because most of them aren't by now. They're not really weak. Just in comparison to who they're inevitably going to have to face if they want a good result. YES. Are you serious?? Of course he'd give better opposition to them... And AGAIN... GOD... I'm not even talking about Lin Dan!! Or China!! Get it? I'm talking about beating the countries that it will take to make their goal of a finals appearance a reality. I'm not saying the current line up can't do that. I'm just saying they're hurting their chances. Could you say the same for KBH? There's little point in me arguing against it. But if that's how you feel, that's how you feel . I'm all for INA's younger players improving as well! I just don't think this is the place. But hey, if it does help them, then I'll be more than happy to admit I was wrong! That goal I believe, is more realistic as well. Yes I do think their outlook will improve because we all know Taufik isn't getting any younger. He's already rather less than his prime. Like badadum pointed out. It's only a matter of time (and a year ago it looked like that time may have already come). Anyway, I'm not saying these players shouldn't come along (although in Tommy's case... perhaps). It's just that they're in place of a clearly better choice. You can have your "backup" players. As long as you've got your best players for the big matches. I tend to agree with the whole "Europeans bloom later" thing. But that's probably true right now. Indonesia - I haven't really seen it yet. Maybe they have plenty of young talents. But I don't see any that are ready for this level yet. If they think they are - bring them along as backups - not the main hope. Because they are not a number 1 for their country, but more likely a number 3 or so. Simple. At number 3 they have a much better chance (repeating myself here). Plenty of other places for it... Yes. It's not about personal gain. It's a team event. THE world class mixed team event. The result of everything the veteran players have worked for. This is about putting everything you've learnt to use. It's about the result. I'm starting to feel that if I reply I'll just be saying the same old things all over again. This is how it is - You don't have a problem with it. I don't really have a problem with it . You agree with the decision. I think it's a bit silly. Remember Taufik's first Thomas Cup (to be honest, I don't... I believe it was 2000? I was 11 back then...)? Correct me if I'm wrong. Just stay in the top 3 in the country. Again, they can go along as backup players, as long as they're not the main hope of the team. They still get "experience". But they don't ruin the team's chances. And at that point it was silly of anyone to pin their hopes on Taufik. He'd had awful results and clearly wasn't anywhere near his best.
Well.. ..so, in other words, looking at the younger players' results and performance, we won't be seeing them for the next 2, 4 and maybe 6 more yrs. in any high level team events?? Personally, i don't see any young INA players coming up on the horizon who'll take the place of Taufik. Simon? Tommy? Andre? any doubles pair? Even if the younger players replace the current veteran players, down the line, i don't see any of them making any real dent in international badminton. And further, if Taufik keeps playing for the next 3-4 yrs, i have no doubt he'll still remain INA's #1 player, despite him getting older etc. That's why, throughout my postings, i've been behind the idea of pushing and putting those younger players to compete in the high level team events, despite their results and performance. Because if they continue with their same results, which i think most likely they will, how are they going to make the Sudirman, Thomas or Uber Cup team?? Simon is "lethal" vs. Taufik??..you gotta be kidding me.. - Trust me, having a youngster be exposed to high level competition will help him/her, whether they win or lose. Either s/he'll pick up the challenge and continue improving or let the result affect them in a negative way. - Personally, i don't think we'll see any INA player of the caliber of Taufik in the next 4-5 yrs or even longer. So-so in the doubles dept. Like i mentioned above, the younger players just can't cut it. Just look at their results and i mean they've been exposed to high level international tourneys. When Taufik was their age, he was one of the most eyed players in the game. The most, i think the current younger INA players can be leveled to is probably Sony. - Yes, i understand you and others haven't seen enough INA younger talents in action. But they are out there. If need proof, just follow and check the tournament threads in BC filled with INA members posting (Krisna, Hau-ge, badMania, Sandy and others). INA badminton is in somewhat of a "dead period" now, with the lack of any young major talent. That's why we need to bring up and expose the youngsters to as many tourneys as possible (be it individual or team; big or small). The more they are exposed, the better it'll be in, hopefully, bringing a sound regeneration process. Playing the same old, same old players will bring nothing much, other than a temporary feeling of accomplishment. - It is a team event but there is some personal gain, esp. for the younger players. The gain/benefit is definitely experience. Even with whatever result the veteran players achieve, what will they gain?? Like i mentioned earlier, even if they go as far as to the Finals round again and for some miracle they win it, what benefit will they get other than holding up the trophy? If the younger players come along but don't get a chance to compete, what will they gain? What benefit will they get? Even worse, if the younger players don't get sent, what and how will they learn/gain something? - What about Taufik's first Thomas Cup??..Taufik made the team most likely because, besides his talent, of his achievement of reaching the AE Final (the previous yr).
