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Discussion in 'Sudirman Cup 2009' started by Sandy, Apr 7, 2009.
You have to admit that TH has "bounced back" from his 2008 level...
I think the basic premise remains this. If the junior players hasn't perform in GP and SS tourney, how exactly are they going to start performing in the SC, TC, UC, OG level??? I seriously doubt just throwing them in there would do any good....
I'm not worry about INA's future in doubles, there's Wifqi/Alfiat and Tantowi/Richi there, and the INA contingents here has been gushing about Jenna Gozali for awhile. Not to mention Bona/Ahsan is still in their early 20s and pairing a still young Butet with another good male double player will more than likely resulted in a formidable XD pair as well.
The men singles...well....a bit different story there....but isn't that the same with most country? I don't see china producing the next LD..(maybe CJ/BCL level but that's it), and MAS rising stars is still very young (Zulkifli is only 16yo). Maybe in 3-4 years, the like of Dion, Gepeng and even Tommy can match up well with other countries star singles.
No comment on WS.
Simon H2H vs Taufik is even IIRC (3-3 or something like that) and in Pelatnas/Kejurnas/Team matches, Simon is one of those player that forces TH to go to the distance, or even beat him.
In 2008 I predicted that Simon will become a top player in 2009... Disappointed so far
Yeah well that's exactly what I'm getting at... There really hasn't been any real star talent coming through recently. If this is experience for next time... do you really think they're even going to have a shot at it next time...? Seeing as you're saying it's all about winning. If these players are here for experience this time... and likely the next time as well... they'll be past their prime before you know it anyway.
If Indonesia is still waiting for talented junior players to come through, then what's the use in giving too much attention to players who are likely never going to make it anyway? Just wait till they mature... and make the most of the true talent while it lasts (veterans). Because they won't be around forever.
I'm sure there are younger talents (and I really hope there are!). But it's this particular generation of "younger" players that I don't see much hope for. That's why I don't see much point in grooming them too much.
Well, like I said - to me, the whole point of a high level competition is ... well ... competition. It's the result of what everyone has worked for. It's not working up to something bigger (because there is nothing bigger).
We just see this differently.
He earned a spot on the team - so he made the team. He also performed well without any previous experience at the tournament.
..hmm, it may seem that way, but personally, i don't think it has changed much. At most it has stayed the same (last yr, Taufik only won 1 title w/several QF finishes & 1 SF finish; this yr, 1 title so far also w/a QF finish & 1 SF finish). And yes, still missing his SS title.
- Like i mentioned before, basically what you're implying is taking into consideration the younger players' results so far, they don't belong in the team events squad. Am i correct?
Now, as i asked before, do you think any of them will improve or changed much in the future? Personally, i don't think so. And if that's the case, that means they won't belong in the team events squads.
What do you mean "If throwing the younger players in tough team competitions won't do them any good"? What makes you think throwing the veteran players, AGAIN, will do the INA squad any good? What kind of gain or benefit will they get? What's the difference anyway in finishing #2 to #4?? I'm still waiting for any explanation.
Do you really think they will realistically bring back the trophy, this time around, even with the veteran players involved? If need proof, check out the last 2 SC results.
- As for the players mentioned, again, i'm taking the opinion that they will be hard pressed to give the same results as the current veterans or just retired veterans. They're just names with not much success, if any consistency at all.
- Do you really take Simon's H2H record vs. Taufik seriously?? Even taking into consideration his record vs. Taufik during Pelatnas training?
If you want to consider a young player to keep an eye on, try Andre KT.
- IMO, giving someone who is young & hasn't played a high level team event will only generate experience. Whether they will have another shot at it the next time, that i don't know & won't worry about (could be because of many reasons). At the very least, s/he has been given a chance.
I never mentioned "it's all about winning" (if i did, mind pointing me to where i mentioned that).
- I'm not saying PBSI should give "too much attention" to the younger players who are likely never going to make much dent in the international scene. All i'm saying is, since they're already there & have already had some experiences in international high level play, yet haven't tasted a team event like the SC, then why not give them a chance to prove what they're worth. There's nothing to lose.
Again, like i mentioned, i don't see any talented younger and junior players who will make much significant contribution in the next 4-5 yrs. If that's the case, would you want PBSI to keep on playing Taufik and other veterans in team events in the next 4-5 yrs?
- There are younger talents in INA Pelatnas. But, IMO, like i mentioned before, they won't make much significant dent like their predecessors. Both this particular generation of younger players and the juniors. If there is/are, i'd by quite surprised. Doubles maybe, but that's about it.
Why do i feel that way? I just look at their tournaments' results.
- What i meant by "bigger" is the "bigger/overall picture" of the squads' present and future. My thinking is almost like, would you sacrifice the now for the future? Would you take a back seat and let the young players struggle & even taste defeat and gain experience for the future?
- That's why he's Taufik. He probably could've made the Thomas Cup when he first joined Pelatnas, if they wanted to. But reality is, not others; thus PBSI has to give them as much chance as possible.
No that is all the same period (late last year up to now). We're talking about before that. Since around Macau he's had fairly consistently good results. Now look at what he was achieving previous to that... basically nothing. Early round exits all over the place. Compared to then he's undoubtedly playing better.
You didn't specifically say that (that I recall). I just gathered this from the way you always mention their chances against *China* in particular. And the way you're saying that since they don't have a realistic chance against *China*, they should just forget about going for a good result and use it as experience.
Simon lack that kill attack, but in the same time he also doesn't have that trickery game like his mentor (Hendrawan)....
I already stated before, INA needs to send their best lineup, which at this time, would still need to include the veterans. It's not INA chances is exactly at 0%. Why lessen your already slim chances even more by putting juniors players???? That's been my point all along.
PBSI goal is to reach the final again...well, their chances to do that is better with the veteran players than the juniors...again, why shoot yourself on the foot?
If there's no difference in finishing in #2 or not even making it out of the group preliminary (finishing #8), why would the rest of the countries other than china, send their best lineup???? In paper, china should dominate TC, UC, SC.... why bother to send any quality team anyway, since china is the overwhelming favorites?
Well considering that most of them are not even 20yrs old....of course you won't hear much about them. They did win several Junior titles already and don't be surprised if you hear them much more often in the future
Andre is decent but his game hasn't improved much...still pretty raw. Tommy has better game than him and will beat Andre more often than not IMO, but for some reason, Andre still has better result in various tourneys.
simon's game can be improve. he shows that during his quarter final match against chong wei in the mo09
was in the stadium and he nearly upset chong wei
- Taufik's record in this yr's first 4 months is slightly better than last yr's first 4 months, i'll credit that. Taufik did start his competition in January last yr, unlike this yr where he only started in March. However, this yr is not over and Taufik might not win another title the rest of the way. Thus leaving the same exact track as last yr's.
- I made the reference to their matches vs. China in the last 2 SC Finals because a point about "the need for competition" had been brought up and why the need to bring and use the same old veterans as before, AGAIN, for this yr's INA SC squad. I responded by mentioning, as i repeat once again, the veterans had already tried their chances twice and came out with the same result, failed to bring the SC back while being white-washed 3-0.
Thus expecting the INA SC squad to win it this time around with the same old veteran players will not only prove the plan will fail, it'll also prove that it won't be the wisest move on PBSI's part.
This time around is to give the younger, somewhat experienced players their chance to perform.
- The point is not about "lessening the already slim chances" or "why shoot yourself on the foot?" The reality is what chances does the INA squad really have?
If INA's chances to win the SC is not exactly at 0%, then mind giving what percentage do they have?
If you think INA's chances is less than 50% (there goes your
favorite percentage saying), then IMO, INA should just send and expose the younger, but somewhat experienced players.
Why would INA follow other countries who are sending their same old, best players, AGAIN? One has to really ask oneself, does INA have any future, younger players?? If so, where are they and why aren't they being exposed to higher level team event(s), despite their struggles in their tourneys' results.
The younger, somewhat experienced players & to an extent the juniors are INA's future. NOT the current or the just retired veteran players.
They've got nothing more to gain and won't benefit the younger players if they're being asked, AGAIN, to perform & try to bring back the SC trophy.
Btw, i still haven't seen any explanation on why sending and playing the same old veterans, AGAIN, and most likely fail to bring the SC back, will benefit them? And will gain something for the youngsters who will just sit & watch?
A bit off topic:
- The way i see it, if those juniors, under 20 yrs old players can't even sniff anything close to what Taufik or what their great predecessors did when he or they was/were their age, i really doubt they'll make much dent in the international baddy circuit in the future. I don't really take the Junior titles much.
That's just me and i'm just holding out as much reservation as i can on the INA younger & junior players.
- I only look at results to figure out the conclusion on younger players. Not hunches or assumptions or hype. And so far, Andre has pretty much won me over Tommy.
If Tommy does really have a better game than Andre, shouldn't his results speak for themselves? So far, he's only won the Jakarta Satellite & Smiling Fish Asian Satellite. Andre has won Dutch Open GP, New Zealand Open, INA Challenge, Open Volant dOr de Toulouse, Brazil Open.
As for Simon, nah, i think he's reach his max. potential. Forget about his lack of power/kill attack or trickery. The dude has only won 2 titles in his nearly 7 yrs of existence in Pelatnas; the biggest one last yr, Chinese Taipei GP Gold after finishing as a runner-up in 2 prior tourneys.
But i still think it's safer to base it on recent form rather than what *might* happen in the future .
Well Simon and Sony are kind of "same old" as well by now. And I don't see Tommy being the hero that brings home the Sudirman Cup in future years, or any of his generation.
The current INA team is stronger than the previous one. I am optimistic INA will win
will win what? against china?or sudirman cup?
- About Taufik's seemingly improvement, so far, i personally would hold off on that idea.
- Simon & Sony are indeed "old" or the "veterans". As for Tommy, i think it's safe to say that he's no Icuk Sugiarto.
..hmm, i don't know if the current INA SC team is stronger or they will win the SC, but i know they are better off playing, dealing and exposing the younger, and not much-experienced-in-team-events players they are going with. If those younger players learn & gain something from this SC, even if they get their behind whipped, i think it would serve them good in the future.
Just a humble question...
Do you think, mister, Indonesia is the only baddie country facing the scarcity of high quality juniors/2nd stringers?
^^A bit off topic-Well..^^
..the way i see it, only CHN is the only country which, so far, has consistently put out high quality players/pairs.
And the point of your question in reference to my post??..My post only specifically focused on INA badminton..
Well, I'm just thinking...
If I can generalize it to analyze other countries' juniors. Never mind.
But somehow, I can't recall the Olympic champ, MK/HS making big bang in baddie world when they're in their teens? Or say, Maria?
About Taufik, I don't really just base it on his results, but also his attitude on court. He said it himself in his blog that he's enjoying his time on court a lot more these days. A good attitude towards the game never hurts! And I think his results just prove it.
Honestly, when I heard Taufik and the others weren't going to be playing, I wasn't all that surprised, or bothered. If it's ok with them, I really don't have anything to complain about do I ? And Vita said she absolutely wouldn't play anyway or something didn't she?
I hope you're right about the younger generation. I hope it serves them well!
in 1989, there were no star in Indonesia team, but they can win Sudirman Cup.
the team in 1993 was the stronger ever Indonesia have, but still can not win the Sudirman.
For Sudirman Cup, it is more depended on strategy, you can see at the Sudirman Cup 2007.
this year will be the weakest team ever Indonesia have ....
when Sudirman was in Indonesia, Thomas and Uber were in China, later on when Thomas and Uber were in Indonesia (1994 - 1996), Sudirman left his home and looks like did not want to come-back anymore.
Sudirman feels that sitting side-by-side with Thomas and Uber to see the beautiful of China people is better than return to his home.
So Sudirman then said : Thomas and Uber, let's LANJUTKAN our togetherness here in China .... China people is here so nice to me, they have kept me here for a long time ....
Oh boy, here we go again with the percentages.....I say INA chances to win the SC is at 30%.
Less than 50% of course (heck the only country that can boast better than 50% will be china), but most definitely nowhere near 0%!
Now.....just because one countries chances to win is less than 50%, you're saying its better to send junior players with even less chances of winning? What's that if not "lessening your chances" and "shooting yourself on the foot"??? Isn't the goal of all team is to win it??
I think we're just running in circles here...... suffice to say we agree to disagree...
Don't forget Tommy is 2 years younger than Andre. Andre also benefits from the massive support know as PB Djarum....while Tommy pretty much "orphaned" in Pelatnas, thanks to Dad.
Just like you look at results, I look at their game.....and I think Tommy has more upside than Andre (as said before, Tommy can beat Andre 3 out of 5 meet)....as long as he can work that crucial 3rd set problem.
Good point by JagdPanther though.... MK/HS is nowhere near the top INA MD 4-5 years ago, yet now they're one of the best in the world.
Well, I believe most of the ppl here had doubts on Kido/Hendra even after they won the World Championships in 2007 They were only convinced after the INA pair won the Beijing Olympics Gold.