Japan Open SemiFinals
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2cents said:... there are so many tons of junks about national pride. Proud to share the same citizenship with Ronald Susilo? Come on! Susilo plays only for money, not for you
If you are so interested in these topic, it should be in another forum, or at least another thread, instead of JO semis. Thanks
Do you guys know that JO semis for MS and MXD have finished?
UH-HUH. Thanks for the waking reminder and enlightening us on the cold hard truth.
Back to JO Semis, I hope we're at least entitled to heave a little sigh of relief for indonesian-born ronald who so happens to be earning a living on puny $ingapore.
go ronald!
Loh
Regular Member
2cents said:I am reading this thread because it is titled "Japan Open SemiFinals".But instead of JO semi latest results, there are so many tons of junks about national pride
Do you guys know that JO semis for MS and MXD have finished?
Sorry you don't share our sentiments. Wonder where you're from? Remember Ronald is a pro, naturally he has to work hard to earn the money. He's getting the desired results at this JO and now he's made to the Finals. How many can make it this far for S'pore? There are many more pros like him in other countries, so that's nothing wrong with it. If our own citizens make it big in sports, there is nothing wrong to be proud of their achievements. I'm sure you'll hear a lot of this during the Olympics! In badminton, often you hear China's players dominating many events, especially the MS. To have a Singaporean in the MS Finals when China's best singles players are also in the some contest, this is indeed an achievement. It really makes us proud!
Hong
Don't apologise for saying that Susilo is a foreign/imported talent because he is. Being new to badminton does not make you new to common sense. You are just opining the view of the silent majority.
Studying at ACS or Ulu Sembawang Secondary does not make one bit of difference. If Susilo had served national service, he might have a slightly better case. If the law ie the government decides to give citizenship to foreign talent, it doesn't make him more Singaporean to me. It is a government policy, period.
If putting Singapore on the world map in terms of badminton honours means a person has "contributed more than the ordinary Singaporean", then you poor boys for serving ns and studying so damn hard. If only Arbi and Taufik did not turn Singapore down.
"Otherwise, very few will know ever know of the existence of tiny Singapore." I am surprised Singapore Tourism board has not approached Susilo. This must fit nicely onto their catchphrase: "Uniquely Singapore".
"One thing that has be stressed is that many of our forefathers emigrated to the the new lands of Southeast Asia, perhaps like your and my forefathers, and elsewhere in the other parts of the world, to seek a better life and they subsequently became citizens of those countries" AFTER they had lived; worked their socks off and naturalised themselves. They were not put onto a pedestal to citizenship or these SE Asain or other countries had welcome them with open arms because their talents were required. Being good coolies or labourers were simply not talent enough. They were imported because imports were required to so things; take on jobs that others might not. Are they not "true and less worthy"? No, because who else would bring the enterprise and do the the dirty jobs that ultimately contributed to the economy of their adopted countries big time.
Does bringing sporting glory justify their tags as real Singaporeans? I hear that many countries are short of nurses. Would the imported nurses be regarded as bringing medical service glory to the country? Expediency because it conveniently sits with certain agenda now does not and will not make one a true citizen. Agendas change from time to time so are those foreign talent/import supporters going to sing to a different tune when agendas and policies change? Ends do not always justify the means. I am happy that we do not have to rely on imports just to bring us sporting glory. It will always be a hollow victory for most. The fact that the country is small etc is no excuse. Many small countries have enjoyed sporting successes with limited resources. If they didn't succeed, at least they tried with what they have.
Apologies to Kwun and some of my moderator friends for taking up your bandwidth.
Don't apologise for saying that Susilo is a foreign/imported talent because he is. Being new to badminton does not make you new to common sense. You are just opining the view of the silent majority.
Studying at ACS or Ulu Sembawang Secondary does not make one bit of difference. If Susilo had served national service, he might have a slightly better case. If the law ie the government decides to give citizenship to foreign talent, it doesn't make him more Singaporean to me. It is a government policy, period.
If putting Singapore on the world map in terms of badminton honours means a person has "contributed more than the ordinary Singaporean", then you poor boys for serving ns and studying so damn hard. If only Arbi and Taufik did not turn Singapore down.
"Otherwise, very few will know ever know of the existence of tiny Singapore." I am surprised Singapore Tourism board has not approached Susilo. This must fit nicely onto their catchphrase: "Uniquely Singapore".
"One thing that has be stressed is that many of our forefathers emigrated to the the new lands of Southeast Asia, perhaps like your and my forefathers, and elsewhere in the other parts of the world, to seek a better life and they subsequently became citizens of those countries" AFTER they had lived; worked their socks off and naturalised themselves. They were not put onto a pedestal to citizenship or these SE Asain or other countries had welcome them with open arms because their talents were required. Being good coolies or labourers were simply not talent enough. They were imported because imports were required to so things; take on jobs that others might not. Are they not "true and less worthy"? No, because who else would bring the enterprise and do the the dirty jobs that ultimately contributed to the economy of their adopted countries big time.
Does bringing sporting glory justify their tags as real Singaporeans? I hear that many countries are short of nurses. Would the imported nurses be regarded as bringing medical service glory to the country? Expediency because it conveniently sits with certain agenda now does not and will not make one a true citizen. Agendas change from time to time so are those foreign talent/import supporters going to sing to a different tune when agendas and policies change? Ends do not always justify the means. I am happy that we do not have to rely on imports just to bring us sporting glory. It will always be a hollow victory for most. The fact that the country is small etc is no excuse. Many small countries have enjoyed sporting successes with limited resources. If they didn't succeed, at least they tried with what they have.
Apologies to Kwun and some of my moderator friends for taking up your bandwidth.
well... it's sad u feel that way... if u feel nationality is something ur born with like your gender... then well no one not born on our soil will ever be singaporean... so who cares abt citizenship... it just states where your born...
oh wait... i am singaporean... wonder what i did to deserve citizenship... oh yeah.. i was born here... big fat hairy deal...
oh wait... i am singaporean... wonder what i did to deserve citizenship... oh yeah.. i was born here... big fat hairy deal...
khelben said:
aiyah i've already said i'm NEW to badminton... n i didn't noe Ronald is in spore for tat long.... i don study players' history u noe???
n i made tat imported talent comments bcos my fran told me so.........
n i've already apologised to tat comment.... wat else u want me to do???
HoNgHoNg said:aiyah i've already said i'm NEW to badminton... n i didn't noe Ronald is in spore for tat long.... i don study players' history u noe???
n i made tat imported talent comments bcos my fran told me so.........
n i've already apologised to tat comment.... wat else u want me to do???
haha really sorree.. u typed too fast... wasn't meant to be for u... reply wuz for the msg before.. hahahaha thousand appologies...
Loh
Regular Member
Hi jhl
Obviously you are a Singaporean. Although you are not quite agreeable with the current government policy on giving citizenship to foreign-talents, I respect your views. I do agree that changes to this policy will evolve over time depending on circumstances and the needs of the nation. I also agree that policies are not perfect and there will be changes to make the system better. Some will benefit more than the others but hopefully the discrepancies will narrow over time.
Of course the contributions of our forefathers, however menial, cannot be discounted. They will always have a place in our history. There is a time and place for us to honour them.
It is not easy for one to make a decision on changing citizenship. It must have been difficult even for our forefathers. But since Singapore welcomed them at that time irrespective of their background and they could make a living, they stayed on and sank their roots there. Now, some later generations of Singapore-born and bred citizens want a better life elsewhere and not a few have migrated. Thankfully, there are others like our forefathers who feel that there is a place for them here and they came to replace Singaporeans who have left. We should not underrate what foreigners can contribute to make Singapore better.
The US is a good example of different races converging there to make their home and still there are many who are willing to risk their lives to become citizens there. Yes, many of the earlier migrants have been badly treated but they persevered and the US became a better place for all and is now the world's strongest nation!
I think the real test for Ronald is whether he will stay on, despite a very short professional career for most sports people, sink his roots here and have a family and continue to contribute when he stops playing for Singapore. Unlike the recent story of a professional soccer player from Croatia who received his citizenship so that he could play for Singapore and now decided to return to Croatia to enjoy life after his playing days were over.
So please give Ronald a chance to prove himself.
Obviously you are a Singaporean.
Although you are not quite agreeable with the current government policy on giving citizenship to foreign-talents, I respect your views. I do agree that changes to this policy will evolve over time depending on circumstances and the needs of the nation. I also agree that policies are not perfect and there will be changes to make the system better. Some will benefit more than the others but hopefully the discrepancies will narrow over time.Of course the contributions of our forefathers, however menial, cannot be discounted. They will always have a place in our history. There is a time and place for us to honour them.
It is not easy for one to make a decision on changing citizenship. It must have been difficult even for our forefathers. But since Singapore welcomed them at that time irrespective of their background and they could make a living, they stayed on and sank their roots there. Now, some later generations of Singapore-born and bred citizens want a better life elsewhere and not a few have migrated. Thankfully, there are others like our forefathers who feel that there is a place for them here and they came to replace Singaporeans who have left. We should not underrate what foreigners can contribute to make Singapore better.
The US is a good example of different races converging there to make their home and still there are many who are willing to risk their lives to become citizens there. Yes, many of the earlier migrants have been badly treated but they persevered and the US became a better place for all and is now the world's strongest nation!
I think the real test for Ronald is whether he will stay on, despite a very short professional career for most sports people, sink his roots here and have a family and continue to contribute when he stops playing for Singapore. Unlike the recent story of a professional soccer player from Croatia who received his citizenship so that he could play for Singapore and now decided to return to Croatia to enjoy life after his playing days were over.
So please give Ronald a chance to prove himself.
Loh said:Sorry you don't share our sentiments. Wonder where you're from? Remember Ronald is a pro, naturally he has to work hard to earn the money. He's getting the desired results at this JO and now he's made to the Finals. How many can make it this far for S'pore? ...
Wow, it is true you can always learn something new every day
I thought Singapore was far more better than what Susilo reprensented! It is new for me today to learn that Susilo represents the better image of Singapore or Singpore is becoming a better country because of Susilo It was not the first time here on this forum that I was asked about my nationality or national origin. I can tell you that without any problem. but you may use it to make the argument more ugly. What's the relationship here with my nationality? I think it is always not approprite to ask others race, nationality, salary, age; as you know, it is illegal for employer to ask this to job applicants in the interview. Why? because most of discriminations are based on people's race, nationality, income and age. So I don't want to give you another fish bait to another round of dirty fightings. Only Hilter asked people's nationality in order to kill Jews, only Indonesia thugs and terrorests asked people's nationality in order to kill Chinese. So I don't want to give you my nationality that you may open fire on all my countrymen. It is simply because it has nothing to do with any other of my countrymen. If you hate me, just hate me, not my countrymen, and if you like me, just like me, not all the other of my countrymen. Same thing applies to Susilo, if he wins, I think he's got better, but not Singapore got better. if he loses, I think he's not in his form, but Singapore still as good as it always. Singapore's form does not depend on Susilo's form.
The other thing you guy disputed about is the difference between "nationality" and "national origin". I found that the authentic legal documents I have reads: "It is illegal to discriminate ... based on race, national origin, ***, age,..." So it is the "national origin" people used to classify other people. Michael Chang is a American born US citizen. But when he played white players from Europe (especially western Europe) in the American soil, who should have the home court advantage on American soil? Not that Michael who's got American name, American citizenship, but Chinese blood. People recognize others by the identity which even just simple as how you look like themselves. That's reason most of the white audience on American soil cheered and supported any white guy from anywhere when playing with Michael Chang, it is also the reason when Michael Chang played in east Asia, even in Tokyo, he was like a national hero. Simply because he looks the same as a Japanese. Of course it is always an one side support at Hong Kong open and Shanghai open for Michael Chang. So it is because only "national origin" counts, not his citizenship, or even where he's born.
I admit that I didn't know Susilo much. I knew him only from his continuous terrible loses to Chen Hong. My impression is that his national origin is Indonesia, not Singapore. Correct me if I'm wrong
I support any player who wins fair and square, without any help from any other players who throw away games against him/her to ensure that the eventual winner is from the same country.
This discussion about Susilo is interesting. I wonder whether S'poreans who are right behind him now (becos he is a "S'porean"?)
1) will be equally behind Arbi and/or Taufik if they had chosen to play for S'pore (for the right $?)?
2) Or these guys will be supported whole-heartedly only if they had become S'poreans?
3) Or will they be supported with the same fervent even if they became S'poreans?
I supposed the argument of SBA (and the govt's policy on sports) has always been it's ok if they are foreign talents. They are here to help to develop the game locally. Well, honestly if the SBA is really doing their job, they can do it better by ensuring that the coverage of badminton is fair and wide in S'pore. How do they expect to develop the interest of the game (which is like the 3rd or 4th most popular sports in S'pore?) when your major (and only real) daily-ST, do not even report anything on any badminton tournaments? I cannot recall any reporting on the JO until Susilo defeated Wong CH. These guys are more content to report the results of ice hockey and baseball in their sport pages than badminton! Hello, ice hockey and baseball are really popular in S'pore, ha.
This discussion about Susilo is interesting. I wonder whether S'poreans who are right behind him now (becos he is a "S'porean"?)
1) will be equally behind Arbi and/or Taufik if they had chosen to play for S'pore (for the right $?)?
2) Or these guys will be supported whole-heartedly only if they had become S'poreans?
3) Or will they be supported with the same fervent even if they became S'poreans?
I supposed the argument of SBA (and the govt's policy on sports) has always been it's ok if they are foreign talents. They are here to help to develop the game locally. Well, honestly if the SBA is really doing their job, they can do it better by ensuring that the coverage of badminton is fair and wide in S'pore. How do they expect to develop the interest of the game (which is like the 3rd or 4th most popular sports in S'pore?) when your major (and only real) daily-ST, do not even report anything on any badminton tournaments? I cannot recall any reporting on the JO until Susilo defeated Wong CH. These guys are more content to report the results of ice hockey and baseball in their sport pages than badminton! Hello, ice hockey and baseball are really popular in S'pore, ha.
HoNgHoNg said:i support the players bcos i LIKE the players n not bcos of wat country they r from....
n by now.... i think many pple here noe i'm crazy over Xuanze n Lin Dan
they r from China, i'm from Spore... but it doesn't matter rite?
ur 100% rite,
that's what i'm talking about, you overcome the barrier of nationality, but unfortunately, most people stuck in it.
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2cents said:ur 100% rite,
of course we should all support players who we think have potential... charisma... etc etc... regardless of his/her nationality... i recall some long debate somewhere in this forum abt that and i fully support the idea... but somewhere along the road when someone who you consider (sometimes contrary to others) to be your fellow countryman does well and pushes forth where others have failed, you take notice... then realise that on that shirt is a flag of a place you call home... perhaps it sounds lame, but i feel proud that they have achieved something while bearing the national flag, because it is something i will probably never, in my entire life, accomplish what they have achieved... certainly some still do not consider susilo to be singaporean... i don't insist that everyone should think the way i do, nor do i insist that they do... susilo to me is as singaporean as it can get... but that itself is just the way i feel... i'd just like to believe that susilo is fighting not only for himself, the pride, the glory, the money, but is at the same time trying to do his home proud... idealistic... maybe... childish.. perhaps... but that's just me i suppose...
Loh
Regular Member
Hail Champ Susil - "Today" 13 April 2004
Local paper, "Today", this morning had journalist Tan Yo-Hinn reporting on the warm reception of "about 50 well-wishers waiting for Singapore's No 1 badminton player at the airport last night, among them the Minister for the Environment and Singpore Badminton Association president, Lim Swee Say."
Said Minister Lim: "I SALUTE Ronald for his great skill and tough mental strength, and his OUTSTANDING CONTRIBUTION to the development of badminton in Singapore.
"Even though this is unexpected, it is certainly not unbelievable, Ronald has worked very hard for this.
"We are PROUD that he has come up top in Japan. It is a breakthrough for Ronald and Singapore. We (SBA and the Singapore Government I take it to mean) have worked hard for a long time for this day to come.
"I'm sure this breakthrough win will spur Ronald to work even harder, and play even smarter towards the Olympic dream."
Now, a Minister of the Singapore Government publicly made those congratulatory statements! You can judge for yourself whether Ronald's contribution make a difference to Singapore.
But I am further moved when Ronald said these words: "It's an honour to win and I am proud of bringing glory to Singapore. I would like to thank everyone for their help. After the win, I nearly shed a tear."
We are proud of you Ronald and may "The Best Is Yet To Be".
Local paper, "Today", this morning had journalist Tan Yo-Hinn reporting on the warm reception of "about 50 well-wishers waiting for Singapore's No 1 badminton player at the airport last night, among them the Minister for the Environment and Singpore Badminton Association president, Lim Swee Say."
Said Minister Lim: "I SALUTE Ronald for his great skill and tough mental strength, and his OUTSTANDING CONTRIBUTION to the development of badminton in Singapore.
"Even though this is unexpected, it is certainly not unbelievable, Ronald has worked very hard for this.
"We are PROUD that he has come up top in Japan. It is a breakthrough for Ronald and Singapore. We (SBA and the Singapore Government I take it to mean) have worked hard for a long time for this day to come.
"I'm sure this breakthrough win will spur Ronald to work even harder, and play even smarter towards the Olympic dream."
Now, a Minister of the Singapore Government publicly made those congratulatory statements! You can judge for yourself whether Ronald's contribution make a difference to Singapore.
But I am further moved when Ronald said these words: "It's an honour to win and I am proud of bringing glory to Singapore. I would like to thank everyone for their help. After the win, I nearly shed a tear."
We are proud of you Ronald and may "The Best Is Yet To Be".
Loh said:Local paper, "Today", this morning had journalist Tan Yo-Hinn reporting on the warm reception of "about 50 well-wishers waiting for Singapore's No 1 badminton player at the airport last night, among them the Minister for the Environment and Singpore Badminton Association president, Lim Swee Say."
Said Minister Lim: "I SALUTE Ronald for his great skill and tough mental strength, and his OUTSTANDING CONTRIBUTION to the development of badminton in Singapore.
"Even though this is unexpected, it is certainly not unbelievable, Ronald has worked very hard for this.
"We are PROUD that he has come up top in Japan. It is a breakthrough for Ronald and Singapore. We (SBA and the Singapore Government I take it to mean) have worked hard for a long time for this day to come.
"I'm sure this breakthrough win will spur Ronald to work even harder, and play even smarter towards the Olympic dream."
Now, a Minister of the Singapore Government publicly made those congratulatory statements! You can judge for yourself whether Ronald's contribution make a difference to Singapore.
But I am further moved when Ronald said these words: "It's an honour to win and I am proud of bringing glory to Singapore. I would like to thank everyone for their help. After the win, I nearly shed a tear."
We are proud of you Ronald and may "The Best Is Yet To Be".
haha yeah just saw it on the news... pity i couldn't go cos i had a exam this morning... but yeah... oh and btw to the non singaporean supporters, "the best is yet to be" is the school motto of ACS... the school which ronald attended when he came to singapore... hee...