Lin Dan ( 林丹 )

Discussion in 'China Professional Players' started by seawell, Oct 29, 2004.

  1. kaffars

    kaffars Regular Member

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    Tbh at least USA fully commit to imperial units. Here in the UK it's a mixed bag. Distance: Miles Speed: Mph Drinks: Pints/Gallons etc etc. But we love the metric system as well.
     
  2. robfitsy

    robfitsy Regular Member

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    It's just that the tabloid press and their army of pensioners would kick up a fuss if all units were changed to metric. EUROPE INTERFERING AGAIN!
    Is there anyone still alive who was taught imperial measures in school in the UK?
     
  3. yuquall

    yuquall Regular Member

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    Hi guys. I am very new to this forum.
    I have been mostly an MD fan, and hadn't really pay much attention to the other disciplines. Due to the fact that I had been absent from the badminton world ever since Sydney 2000 (more exactly they had been trying new scoring system). So forgive my ignorance of many things and trust me after I 'skimmed' through this 550 pages of Lin Dan's thread (undeniably some were useless debates) for DAYS I think I deserve some slack for being very ignorant and bitter as I couldn't find the information I was looking for in this LONG thread.

    Just got back to the badminton progress recently and been trying to catch up with all the things I have missed since early 2000s (though mainly MDs). Even so I was so much intrigued with Lin Dan for people regarding him as the GOAT and then there were some negative reviews about him being violence, arrogant, infidelity etc I could read in every badminton tabloid or comments in youtube videos. And I hadn't given it some thought until I watched Lin Dan's matches in AE 2018 in live stream while waiting for the MD matches. For the first I was very very much impressed by a MS player. His play, different from what typical MS players who rely mostly on their speed, power and stamina, was purely tactical and skillful. He engineered most of the rallies and like a puppet master, he made the opponents running all over the court in quite long rallies just to get/lose a point while he (seemingly) just stood there and made the least moves. And to make it even impressive, he just scored the last points just enough to take the match. His loss in final was a shame, that bloody break was too good a timing for Shi Yu Qi. Though I am not sure that he could win the final but at least he wouldn't have lost that much in game 3.
    Well I guess, what's not meant to be, it's not meant to be.

    So being someone who was not really aware of his past achievements nor his previous performances, judging from his performances in AE 2018 itself, I started to understand why he is considered the GOAT. Especially after watching his performances when he was younger and stronger, to transform himself to a player like he is right now at his age and physical form is what should be more than enough saying that he is truly an exceptional that separate him from the other players.

    Anyhow, the reason why I came to this thread was to find out :
    1. Watching his older matches in BWF.tv made me wonder why Gill was so hostile toward him? Was it really like what she claimed that the opponents were playing his reputation not 'the man' himself ? I have watched a few of his old matches after London and I couldn't see how she as a former pro player could actually not see that it was obvious that the opponents weren't able to play their usual against Lin Dan. I, for once, not being a fan but someone who knew a bit about badminton thought that it wasn't his reputation but it was Lin Dan himself always projecting this aura and pressure with every clever shot he made which dictate the rally onto the opponents. Or was I wrong thinking this way? Or Gill knows something more as a former pro player? Even Steen didn't say much about it and always replied 'maybe' 'probably' or laughed nervously.

    2. I am also very curious about his coach. There are many compilation youtube videos that showed Lin Dan (quite obviously) ignoring one of the coach. I really really really want to know why that is and who is that coach?
    Trust me for the first few times google had failed me, and I was more than willing to READ through this WHOLE 550 pages to find the answer so I am deadly seriously curious to know. And if someone who were kindly enough to at least enlighten me so I can have my sleep at last?
     
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  4. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Regarding the reputation part - first of all, you misunderstood the comment if you think Gill was hostile at all. She was not, and it is not negative towards Lin Dan in any way.
    Secondly, any competition where you actively play against an opponent (rather than the clock, or any measuring device) has a substantial psychological component. In this case, that means that through years and years, LD had built a reputation of being unbeatable. He had staged some great comebacks, he had utterly smashed opponents, he had toyed with some - done it all. Only a select few were able to beat him, ever, and apparently no one was capable of it when he truly wanted a title, and his many major titles seem to support that hypothesis.
    Now even LD is not immune to age and its effects, and he actually started changing his game bit by bit as early as 2011, in fact I see a very clear difference between, say, his 2010 Thomas Cup play and his 2012 OG style. While he didn't have a huge drop in performance, his level did decline a bit compared to his previous heights, the 2007-2009 Era probably being his peak and the best anyone has ever played MS.
    That did not, however, change the fact that everybody he played against knew that he had won it all, that he had beaten everyone, and that he was, for years on end, seemingly unbeatable to mortals, only losing a few choice matches here and there to elite players. Others, being outside of this elite, never dreamed of defeating him because he appeared to need a weak day to be beaten by the World number 1 (or 2 or 3), what chance did they stand?

    It's very much the same when you play in a club that has several teams, and you're in the 3rd or 4th and play the best player of team 1. You haven't played him before, but you've seen him destroy others who in turn beat you. You've seen him toy with guys who have barely lost a game to you. Now, after months, you play him. At first, it's a match like any other. You even lead by 2 points at one stage.
    Then, all of a sudden, he ups the pace. He starts attacking more, intercepting and smashing shots he previously took late, and moves a lot quicker, taking your shot earlier and putting pressure on your drop shots even. You start to fall behind. Once he has established a 5 point lead, he pets up a bit - but his play is still at least as good as yours. You know he could, at any time, start killing your drop shots again if you play them loose, so you reduce your margin of error. He returns some of your smashes that never came back before, so you start aiming for the lines, still playing them as hard as possible. Yet you don't catch up, no, the gap is widening. You think: this is why no one beats him. How can I possibly do this, when all those better players have failed? You fight a bit less for each point. You start losing a bit of body tension, your reactions get a bit sluggish. You lose 21-14, 21-7. You remember this the next time you play him, 4 months later...


    PS sorry for the positively massive post. Didn't realize it was that long whilst typing :D
     
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  5. yuquall

    yuquall Regular Member

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    I understand the psychological part and all and that is, I am sure, one of the trait of a great(est) player to be able to toy with the opponent's mental with his mere presence on court and I have no problem with it at all because I do know how it feels to be in his opponent's shoes. So while in some cases it could be right and to those I had no objections. But what I meant by hostile was she often sounded too eager to imply that whatever we were seeing (we saw Lin Dan playing very cleverly nothing much to do with mental blocks and his opponents were obviously got trapped in his web) were in fact that the opponents playing with the reputation "Super Dan" and they should have played with Lin Dan "the man" itself. I mean, come on, as if it was easy for the opponents to play with "Lin Dan" when he was cleverly building the trap and waiting for the opponents to get caught in it then just devour them in the end. It takes a very high level of skills, techniques and patience to pull that off. Not always successful but he has done it many times. Or is it my imagination that he was actually employing this strategy or is it just the opponents who as Gill said hadn't overcome the 'reputation' or 'mental block' or 'hero worshiping'?

    And you haven't answered me about the coach? And I am dying to know..

    Sorry I am still a bit (?) emotional after the long long roller coaster ride through this very delightful thread which is full of badminton experts and non biased comments from many of the posters.
     
  6. Nine Tailed Fox

    Nine Tailed Fox Regular Member

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    Mental Block is overrated....Once LD lost just a touch of his FH, Fitness and Movement in 2015, LCW started to pounce on him even in China.

    Roger Federer, a pigeon of Nadal for 10 LONG years is beating him like no tomorrow when Rafa's speed and FH took a major hit.

    Chen Long is no longer playing at Rio/ WC 2015 Level and hence winning close to nothing.



    It's all about knowing what gears you possess and what pace you can tolerate that makes opponent crumble in fear.

    Lin Dan in 2018, still has the gears to close the shop against 90% of opponents. It's few who are in their physical Peak that he can't handle at 35.
     
  7. Nine Tailed Fox

    Nine Tailed Fox Regular Member

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    Lin Dan, just like Roger Federer, just Like Lionel Messi only wants to hear if there is a major weakness to exploit.

    There are very few if any technical advice that he can incorporate in his game due to his excellence.
     
  8. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall this talk of "playing the reputation" taking place after his comeback in 2014, when he was quite clearly not even close to his 2012 form. It might have taken place in 2015 as well, but by then his reputation had started to fade, and he was getting beaten left, right and center by people who had no business beating him in 2012. Yes, he had those tournaments where he played well and got finals or even titles, but he also had tournaments where he lost against the likes of NG KA Long or H. S. Prannoy.

    The things you see may also be influenced a bit by your perception, for me as a more casual, impartial viewer of his matches the drop-off in speed and intensity compared to his 2012 level was quite noticeable.
    I don't know if you picked up on this but his jumps have gotten much, much worse, and he doesn't seem to like bending his knees anymore, whether that's because of his injuries or because he feels it saps his energy....he looks a lot less mobile, agile, elegant on court in comparison.
    I happened to watch a video where he was featured at a really young age (something like 'are their backhand better than Taufiks 2' or along those lines), playing a long rally with Taufik which was captured from court level - the difference in footwork is absolutely mind blowing, he now looks like an arthritic senior in comparison. The one thing that hasn't left him are his touch and his anticipation, but without the pressure of his offensive play and the speed to capitalize on openings, more and more young players start to see the light at the end of the tunnel and beat him by superior athleticism and pace, and sometimes (like in the case of Tommy Sugiarto in 2015) through dogged perseverance.

    At least that's my perception of it all. :D
     
    #10988 j4ckie, Apr 5, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
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  9. yuquall

    yuquall Regular Member

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    Um.. some matches from in 2013 to around 2016 I think. Couldn't find many of his videos since he didn't compete much during those years. Mostly the matches he won.

    As I said before, I hardly knew his performances before AE 2018. So I guess I could be counted as impartial too when I saw what I saw in AE 2018. So if you asked me to compare his form before and after, I could only agree with everybody else.
    Indeed after watching his prime (before 2012) highlights movies, he was like a different person.

    That is what I was trying to say (badly), with his age and physical limitation he could develop such a play in high level tournaments which in my opinion is a great achievement for an athlete. He hardly moves but with every shot he returns the opponent has to run from every corner of the court. I know too much about physical limitation so I couldn't help but admire his determination and hard work considering how he had been before this decline. Many athletes would have retired instead rather putting on hard work on something new. Not many of them have the courage to try something new in the later stage of their career.

    So his wins shouldn't have been mainly due to 'reputation' or 'mental block' as she claimed (too) many times instead of his new play development? I didn't know she could be that biased? Or maybe I just happened to watch the (several) matches where she inclined to be in mood to 'praise' the opponents and said practically almost nothing about LD.
    Anyway, never mind about this.

    So am I going to get some answers about the ignored coach or where I could get the info at least? Because that was the thing that made me came here in the first place. T_T
     
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  10. yamsyams

    yamsyams Regular Member

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    He's had several coaches over the years, unless you can direct us to a video of the person you are talking about it's a bit difficult to answer that.

    Having said that, he respects the hell out of Tang Xianhu, so I don't think it could have been him. I haven't really seen him *ignore* Li Zhifeng either, perhaps because of the coach's seniority. He does tend to be somewhat dismissive towards both Xia Xuanze and Chen Yu though, probably because he won the last 5 matches he played with the former and has never lost to the latter, so it could be the case that he feels he's on equal ground. (You can google the names and see if any of their pictures match the person you're thinking of)

    Generally though, Lin Dan does tend to take a proactive approach to the coaching breaks, and actively discusses with the coaches instead of being told what to do like most other players.
     
  11. yuquall

    yuquall Regular Member

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    Thank you.

    Here is the link of the video

    starts from 1:15

    And I have seen in other videos or matches where he obviously ignored him and just talked to the other younger coach. So it made me curious because age wise, the coach should be in a higher position.
     
  12. yamsyams

    yamsyams Regular Member

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    The older coach would be Li Zhifeng.

    I've seen them taking turns to talk to LD, and I suppose LD doesn't really need/want to focus on the person who isn't talking. Sometimes the two coaches would also discuss what to tell LD between themselves, and in that case only one of them actually needs to talk.

    I wouldn't think too much into this case
     
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  13. yuquall

    yuquall Regular Member

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    Thank you!! You are my savior!!
    I know but I was just curious. =D You know when you had something in your mind that you couldn't shake it off.
    Even for these kind of trivial matters. Should have just asked and saved me 1 week of deprived of sleep trying to find out.
    :confused::confused:
     
  14. phorge

    phorge Regular Member

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    Aye. The things that keep you up at night. Differs from person to person. Glad you are at peace at last.
     
  15. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Allow me to hazard a guess about the 'ignored' CHN coach , presumably, Li Zhifeng who used to sit beside Xia Xuanze on courtside during Lin Dan's matches.

    Firstly, I won't go so far as to say that Lin Dan is ignoring him purposely due to some quarrels or personal differences with him as they used to get along fine before and he still continues to sit in at Lin Dan's matches. If they have fallen out with each other,I doubt Lin Dan would want him there or carry on working with him.

    Secondly, I suspect the first time LZF and Lin Dan couldn't see eye to eye with each other might have to do with Lin Dan's rock-bottom performance in 2015 when LZF might've sort of casually expressed that age has finally caught up with Lin Dan, that, therefore decline is inevitable, as such winning a big or prestigious title where the competition is top-notch is probably beyond him, and so on and so forth. And that's not mentioning Li Yongbo once openly lamenting that he no longer saw the hunger to win in Lin Dan and that he's going to personally take charge of Lin Dan's training regime, emphasizing the physical aspect, and, worse, warning Lin Dan that he might not go to Rio Olympics if his world ranking fell below his fellow teammates (all this I've posted before somewhere in this thread).

    While I don't have any evidence of LZF actually making that kind of remarks, I make bold to conjecture that LZF could've said something to that effect to Lin Dan based on what the latter expressed at the post-match interview immediately after capturing his 6th AE crown in 2016 when, in reply to the interviewer's question on how he felt being AE champion again , he pointed to where his coaches were sitting in the spectators' stand and saying, ' all the Chinese coaches are sitting over there, I've to prove myself through every tournament, and let them realize that even though Lin Dan this year is 33 years old already, he can still do it.'

    Thirdly, this year 2018, Lin Dan started in lacklustre fashion once again, much to our dismay, losing to Huang Yuxiang in the CBSL semifinals which cost his team Qingdao a place in the final, followed by three successive losses in January, namely, to Ihsan Mustofa in R1 of the MAS Masters, to Kantaphon Wangcharoen in R1 of the INA Masters, and then to Ng Kah Long in the QFs of the German Open, before the AE Final defeat to Shi Yuqi. So I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if LZF once again started to entertain doubts of Lin Dan's abilities and age concerns, possibly insinuating it. If Li Yongbo were still around, he might be so pissed as to threaten Lin Dan to shape up or ship out. Nah, just kidding, not to that extent.

    As we know, it's not uncommon for coaches to tell their players off, directly or indirectly, chiding or chastising, according to the coaches' style or personality. Yes, I know, we're talking about Lin Dan, not just any player, who else but Li Yongbo would dare scold him straight to his face ? Li Zhifeng would at most either let out a sigh of disappointment or gave a hint of what he thought by mincing his words.

    Anyway, I should like to agree with yamsyams' point of view not to read too much into it. In my opinion, Lin Dan has reached a level where he doesn't need any coaching advice at all. Notice how often we see Lin Dan in recent years initiating the conversation during breaks or exchanging views with his coaches on an equal basis instead of just listening and nodding in agreement as most players are wont to do.

    Lastly, I can't help but express what a pity it is Lin Dan failed to capture his 7th AE crown, faltering at the final hurdle to a much younger and fitter up-and-comer despite such an outstanding and uplifting performance en route to the final until the deciding third set.
     
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  16. yuquall

    yuquall Regular Member

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    Thanks a lot for the insight.

    Well honestly I didn't really read too much into it but I just had this unexplainable urge to know without knowing why. 96.7% Mr. Google could ease my mind but this time Google had failed me. But thanks to you and yamsyams tonight I should sleep in peace again. Strangely, the more I tried (googling all the words I could think of, going through this thread page by page from 1 to 549 within a few days) the more I felt like AFTER ALL THIS HARD WORK I MUST FIND THE ANSWER OR ELSE! It's like having a bee in your bonnet LOL. Time to move on..

    It was really a pity, I was watching the final live with my mother and we thought he had a good chance the way game 2 went on if wasn't for that 'lucky' medical break. After that and going to the final set he seemed to lose focus and concentration, making a lot of unforced errors in the beginning of game 3 and gradually getting more and more impatient. Not to mention a number of 'lucky' net cords from Shi Yu Qi to make things worse for Lin Dan. By the look on his face at the last points, I could tell he was mad at himself and was really disappointed with his own performance in the 3rd game. Was it tears I saw in his eyes?
    Oh well, my mother and I believe luck has a say in sport matches. Anything can happen. This time it was not his day. Better luck next time Lin Dan.
     
  17. Nine Tailed Fox

    Nine Tailed Fox Regular Member

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    I am supporting The Lin Dan for the Asian Badminton Championships, Wuhan for which he has started training and that too in the National Camp. Since Kevin and his partner Sukamuljo aren't playing in BAC...You can offer your support to The Dan of Fuzhan.

     
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  18. yuquall

    yuquall Regular Member

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    Kevin and his partner Sukamuljo? Kevin has a new partner? LOL I hope you meant Gideon.

    Okay, since someone is going honeymoon so why not?
    LIN DAN! JIA YOU! LIN DAN JIA YOU! LIN DAN JIA YOU! :mad::mad:
     
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  19. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Just realized that Lin Dan is going down under only to play the NZ Open WTS300 and skipping the AUS Open WTS300 the week after. I guess he's there in New Zealand mainly to do his part to promote the sport more than anything else.

    Should've known he's not that competitive or hardworking as to take part in two consecutive low-tier tournaments back-to-back. Perhaps it's more to do with the Thomas & Uber Cup which commences 20th May, one week after the end of the AUS Open WTS300 event as the coaches would understandably prefer him to be home a bit earlier for some final preparations before the all-important team major. Besides, it's unwise to tire himself out and risk injury just a week before the TUC.
     
    #10999 Justin L, Apr 6, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  20. Nine Tailed Fox

    Nine Tailed Fox Regular Member

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    China's new golfer

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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