Opponent’s shuttle out, umpire awards point to opponent

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by Cheung, Aug 21, 2019.

  1. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    This situation came up in Hong Kong in a junior tournament:

    - Opponent smashed shuttle and it went out the back of the court.

    - Umpire called shuttle out.

    - Umpire gave point to opponent

    - Me sitting on side of court in coaches chair confirms with umpire shuttle is out.

    - umpire asks shuttle to go opposite and let the opponent serve.

    - I ask umpire why she is giving point to opponent

    - Umpire doesn’t reply

    - I state shuttle is out, shouldn’t my player get the point.

    - umpire looks at her score sheet. No reply, just a stony face.



    At this point, I have to make a quick decision. Do I continue to argue (it’s 1st game 18-18) and risk my ten year old daughter getting emotionally upset to the point she can’t play or let the play go on and try to calm my player against the injustice?

    Here we are dealing with ten year olds who have less match experience and trust the umpire to make the right decisions (umpire does have an umpiring qualification). Any unfairness can upset a child tremendously....

    What would you do? I know what I would do if I was the player, but how about your kid where the emotions run more highly.

    Tell you what happened after hearing your opinions.....
     
  2. latecomer

    latecomer Regular Member

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    Finish the match and seek explanation after.
     
  3. speCulatius

    speCulatius Regular Member

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    I think this should be more emphasized and not just a side note on brackets. I've seen umpires snoring mistakes without problem, but someone who is not used to umpiring, maybe forced to do it, insecure, .... I think this is the culprit.

    What should you do? Well, are you her dad? Her coach? Both? Then she's your priority. I'd still try to talk to the "umpire" afterwards by asking if I understood it correctly that the shot was called out and then pointing out the mistake.
     
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  4. It'sMeMeMe

    It'sMeMeMe Regular Member

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    continue argue with the umpire.....if he/she still won't budge then calm your player...ask her to continue no matter what.... n do her best...
     
  5. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    ask umpire how much the opponent paid him, and double the amount! :D

    seriously though, there are 2 ways.

    1. involve the referee.
    2. let it go. though that's hard to do at 18-18 1st game. the outcome could well affect the rest of the match.

    but the emotion part is hard. but if you are involved, maybe most of the emotion burden will be in you instead of the player.
     
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  6. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    First thing first.

    In a regular match with experienced players and umpire, in this situation player has to realize that this is the point of law. When shuttle is out on your side, the point should be yours. Player should insist for the referee to come and the referee will tell the umpire that he is wrong. Player should do it right away as any decision of the umpire can only be contested until the start of the next rally, after that there is nothing to talk about. As a coach you can not do much other than trying to say loudly that there was a mistake and hope the umpire will realize it himself. You cannot do much more as if you interfere in the match an umpire will have to ask the referee to have you removed from the court.

    If you are on court coaching ten year old child I would take it is a good education opportunity. It is a good situation to explain to her that the first priority on court is a good sportsmanship. Even there was unfair decision the best would be to do is leave it behind and do her best to win despite it and surely not to blame the loss on it. It is very important that the kid learns sportsmanship early as later it will be impossible to teach it especially when he enters difficult age. At 13 the opportunity will be gone.

    At the same time this is a good situation to explain the rules to the kid and make him aware that it is ok to discuss the situation with the umpire and to insist on his/her position. It is not easy but this is easier to learn with time and when they grow more confident they will do the right thing.

    I understand that as a parent it is painful to watch your kid been unfairly treated however in my opinion we should control our protective instinct and try to do what would be the best thing in the long run...
     
    #6 stradrider, Aug 21, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
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  7. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Thanks everybody for the replies.

    I haven’t been in such a situation before and if you are the coach, you get annoyed. If you are also the dad, you get more emotional. It was fortunate that the mum was not coach during that match otherwise I think all hell would have broken loose!

    I had to make a snap decision and as @stradrider correctly pointed out, if I do continue to argue the point, then there is a definite risk that I will be made to leave courtside and there is still at least one more game to play. As a coach, I don’t think you can call for the tournament referee. The player can ask for the tournament referee but not many ten year olds know the game enough to know that.

    Luckily we have two seats for coaches so her club coach was sitting next to me and also not happy.

    My daughter lost the game, and was crying at the changeover. I spoke to the umpire again very quickly at the change, asked her to check her scoring sheet and said the shuttle was out and she gave the point to the opponent. I saw her check her scoring sheet and I think she probably realised she had made a big error. My priority is my player who is naturally upset so I went quickly to my daughter. We have to try to calm her down as best as possible for the next game. As we all know, players can completely collapse mentally in the second game. After quickly making my point to the umpire (because I don’t want to be asked to leave the courts), I deal with my daughter.

    Luckily, in the past, my kid has been through a few these emotional episodes in some games and we have talked it through. I have explained to her things like one point at a time, don’t show upset emotions to opponent (because they will get confident), if you yourself get upset then you affect yourself. At least she had some practice(!) before this tournament, the most important tournament of the year on the local scene.

    Our club coach was excellent. He is an ex-Olympian. He said to my daughter she needs to look to the next game, there still another game, you haven’t lost, don’t let the opponent see you crying etc. I can’t remember what I said to her (LOL) except try to calm her down, wipe her tears, give her water, don’t outwardly show that I am frustrated (!) and tell her that the opponent was looking really tired.

    There was a big difference in change of ends and my daughter won it 21-10. The third game was tight with both players tired but my daughter pulled through to take it at 21-18. Some mental tiredness showed in the third set due to the emotions of the first set and the players here are less used to three game matches but that also affected the other player. I got my happy kid back thankfully :)

    There is a lot at stake here for this quarter final match. A win takes you into the semifinals and a medal. Also, a semifinal place means she has a great chance to get promoted into the next stage of the Badminton development pathway organised by the HK Badminton Association. We didn’t emphasize all this to her beforehand - from her point of view, if she wins, she gets to semifinals. Keep things simple for the player.

    It’s been a tremendous learning experience for her. As for me, I need blood pressure tablets during tournaments.
     
    #7 Cheung, Aug 21, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
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  8. Fidget

    Fidget Regular Member

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    You did well, Cheung.
    Your daughter grew stronger because of this experience.

    Learning to handle adversity and unfairness is a Life lesson that sport gives children.
    Stand up for yourself. Put negative experiences behind you. Show decorum and try your best.

    These lessons are much more important than any one match.
     
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  9. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    your daughter did well!

    my sons would've complained and lose their temper and throw away the rest of the match.

    has happened many times before when they complain about their opponent cheating on line calls. they just cannot get over it after many many episodes and still cannot to this day.
     
  10. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    You know I was frantic inside. If it were me, I have years of experience to cope with the situation. Like you said, some kids can’t get over it - in fact, many many kids can’t get over it. Many adults can’t get over it!

    To be honest, I am quietly impressed with her being able to come back like that and regaining control of her emotions. I need to ask her what she felt as it’s only been a few days afterwards and we have not yet discussed it in detail.
     
  11. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    Great post @Cheung. That was well done and congratulation for your daughters success! I like that you didn't burden her with the importance of the match. I think we as parents learn as much as our kids in those situations :).
     
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  12. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    While the decision and handling is of course wrong, note that the umpire is correct to not talk to you, if only by accident. From the ITTO:
    All interaction is supposed to go through the players. But the rules were made with adults in mind, not 12 year old girls.

    In practice, as an umpire I would quickly decide: Do I think I made a mistake? Then I will apologize, correct it and move on. Otherwise, I'd call the referee and let them deal with the coach. But I don't call the referee for a couple of comments that might as well be directed to the player. In that situation, just playing on and ignoring the coach is reasonable.

    When your daughter gets a little bit older, you (or better, her coach) can talk through what to do when this happens:
    Talk to the umpire and state the problem (Didn't you call the shuttle out on my side?). But if the umpire does not budge, there is little to gain from protesting more, both from a law and from a competitive standpoint. In this specific case and other incorrect law interpretations, you can call the referee. But in most cases – especially line and fault calls – the chances of the referee intervening are nil.
    What a player needs in this cases is a good mindset. Remember your strategy. Play a little bit safer so that the shuttle is inside the lines instead of just at the border of the line. Plan your first shot for the next rally. Talk to umpire or referee after you've won the match.

    Not having this mindset is a weakness of many youth players, so if your daughter can master this mental fortitude quickly, she will have a competitive advantage. Congratulations and best of luck in future matches to her!
     
  13. event

    event Regular Member

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    Wow. I clicked through to this thread thinking it was about the World Championships. What a coincidence! The difference is that while your daughter's opponent got the point and the shuttle, Chen/Jia got the shuttle but not the point. Anyway, fascinating discussion here with childhood and parenthood in the mix. Thanks so much for sharing, Cheung.
     
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  14. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    Feel free to open a new thread, I would love to see it. Who were they playing against, and what was the score? (Bonus points for a video timestamp)
     
  15. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    Great thread. Not sure that I had managed to stay calm in Cheung's position but in the end, that whole situation turned into an awesome real-life experience for your daughter. And who knows, maybe it was that moment that triggered your daughter's killer instinct to push through till the end like that. Congrats to her by the way, also for coping with the situation the way she did! That's clearly not standard for a 10 year old. :)
     
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  16. SSSSNT

    SSSSNT Regular Member

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    If I'm the opponent, I'd be as confused as you. What did her opponent and coach do? Did they speak up at all or just silently hoping the umpire doesn't realize the mistake?
     
  17. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    They just kept silent.
     
  18. Desireless

    Desireless Regular Member

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    A lot at stake for who?

    Having studied psychology I’m curious why a player would be crying after losing the first game. To me that indicates a _lot_ of pressure/expectation/identification in the player’s mind.

    Does she think of badminton as her future career, and that losing might jeopardize that path? Does she fear losing because she doesn’t want to disappoint her parents? Does she associate sports with her own self worth and feel like a failure if she doesn’t win?

    All of the above are all too common when it comes to children and amateur sports, and a lot of parents don’t realize the lasting trauma that can be caused by children bearing too much emotional pressure at too young an age. What’s supposed to be a playful experience of youth turns into an emotional rollercoaster that they may or may not fully recover from.

    Unless a child has already decided that a sport is going to be their lifelong study and career, the outcome of any given game is essentially _meaningless_ in the long run. Parents sometimes lose sight of this fact and themselves become more identified with winning than their children.
     
  19. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    @Desireless

    I suppose your psychology lessons didn’t tell you about different reactions to unfairness and expressions of frustration in children. :). It’s true there is the expectations- here for my kid the expectation is that she is treated fairly which in this case, she hasn’t been from her perspective and it’s a shock that’s thrown her off her rhythm. My own expectations are to take one match at a time and see how it goes.

    I definitely agree. It’s not a problem for me if she loses a match. It’s the learning process that is important. Life is sometimes tough. Decisions are sometimes tough, learning is sometimes tough. If we wrap kids up in world where they are always protected and never get frustrated, they never learn life skills. If you have a target, you have to understand that sometimes the process of getting there might be tough and you have to pay your dues in effort, lots of effort. That’s the saying of blood, sweat and tears.

    If she gives up easily, I would be worried that she will never cope in later life. There are plenty of people who moan about life, lack of promotion but never realise that they themselves might be the problem.

    My kid did very, very well to control her temperament. I am impressed by her. She is only a kid but kids do have to develop and grow up step by step. I guess that’s unfortunate for us parents who like to keep them around forever. :D
     
    #19 Cheung, Aug 24, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
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  20. Desireless

    Desireless Regular Member

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    Much to learn...you still have :D

    But to your point, Badminton is not my day job. So whenever I step onto a court, I remind myself that I’m there to exercise, and enjoy myself. As long as those are achieved, winning or losing makes no difference to the outcome.

    Everyone seems to think TTY must regret missing out on WC because she chose Universiade etc etc but I don’t get that impression from her. Of all the WS players I get the feeling she is the one having the most fun, because she’s not overly caught up in the outcomes.
     
    #20 Desireless, Aug 24, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019

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