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Diving: Coached or not?

Discussion in 'Coaching Forum' started by Matt Ross, Jul 18, 2004.

  1. Matt Ross

    Matt Ross Regular Member

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    Been thinking about this for a while. Compare diving for a second...

    European: Anyone see Marting Lungaard Hansen dive? Pretty good, put however he lands flat on the floor recovery time not so quick.

    Asian: Shuttle connected with, hand then land on ground and the back end swings round. Ables to push up alot quicker (eg Wong Coong Han, Xia Xianze, Lin Dan)

    So my question is, do you think that diving is coached, even possibly as a small percentage of training, in Asia?
     
  2. Dill

    Dill Regular Member

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    That's a difficult one because I've never heard a coach saying anything about diving they're all too busy teaching footwork :p

    Good point though, maybee in Asia they've just got better divers, then again explain David Ginola?
     
  3. ants

    ants Regular Member

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    Well in my point of view , if you become a professional for a long time , it sort of like an instinct when it comes to diving. And automatically you are aware and knows how to recover fast. maybe we should foward this question to JR and Laybourn.
     
  4. Matt Ross

    Matt Ross Regular Member

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    JR is good at it, but with the Asians, it seems fluent? The landing, swift movement of the legs coming round, then back up to feet, it seems almost routine.
     
  5. ants

    ants Regular Member

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    I think it comes from the trainning method where you do pumping and then jump up to do jumping jacks..and then go back down on the floor pumping...
     
  6. William86_98

    William86_98 Regular Member

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    I think...if you are well trained, and you are mentally as well as physically attached to the shuttle, it will be natural for you to dive when u see that you need to in order to reach the shuttle. As for the recovery, the better you are physically, then the faster you recover. Keep in mind, most of the Asian players are quicker than the European players, which could be the reason why they recover faster.
     
  7. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    yes, but only when all the all footwork fundamentals and advanced have been mastered.
     
  8. wilfredlgf

    wilfredlgf Regular Member

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    Is it a coincidence that footie-diving demigod Jurgen Klinsmann was at Spurs the same time when Ginola switch from Tyneside for London?

    Personally, I don't dive but do a lot of desperate lunges and never end up flat on the floor because I think recovery is will very much be screwed, not even in doubles.
     
  9. Brave_Turtle

    Brave_Turtle Regular Member

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    I also think its instinct
     
  10. jamesd20

    jamesd20 Moderator

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    I think the asian players you mentioned were also condiderably younger than Luungaard hansen (33?) even wongand Xia are seven years younger than him. Age affects athletic ability, especially flexibility and speed. Also european tend not to be as agile and flexible than asians.

    They may do however I cant believe li yong bo would set up a routine where they were feeding shuttles to the players and telling them to dive to get to the shuttle. remember diving represents footwork problem, i is not a footwork technique.
     
  11. Matt Ross

    Matt Ross Regular Member

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    If your on one side of the court, and your opponent plays a step smash not even years of footwork routine will manage you to get the shuttle back, so diving is the solution. I wouldnt say it resembles bad footwork in the slightest...it does when the shuttle is only a couple of feet away.
     
  12. Tomsk

    Tomsk Regular Member

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    As someone who is considered an expert at diving (at least in my club anyway ;) ) you have to consider where a person is diving to.

    A dive straight ahead means a hard flat landing that is difficult to get up from.

    A dive to the side usually means a landing on the side of the body. From this position it is easier to tuck your leg(s) up and push up off the floor. Also a dive to the side will quite often allow the player to land on their back shoulder area and from this continue to roll onto one's feet.

    That's what I do anyway.
     
  13. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

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    Can't agree more than this. ;)
     
  14. carlol

    carlol Regular Member

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    asian physique

    maybe its the asian physique.... built to be springy and light, for kung-fu style moves.

    The same way we asians have a harder time bulking up like most caucasians can build muscles.
     
  15. timeless

    timeless Regular Member

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    I wouldn't be surprised if badminton players and coaches learn diving from volleyball players/coaches and then apply it to badminton. Volleyball players have the smoothest, most efficient dives, and their recovery is also very quick.
     
  16. jamesd20

    jamesd20 Moderator

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    IMHO diving isnt the solution here, the solution is to play a stroke which enables you to recover to move to the centre so you can regain the footwork pattern.

    BTW:

    If your opponent is able to hit a steep smash, then that must infer that the shuttle is high (in order to get the angle). If the shuttle was high, then surely you wouldnt be (with correct footwork) at one corner of the court when you opponent strikes the shuttle.
     
  17. Matt Ross

    Matt Ross Regular Member

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    Internationals are so deceptive now days who knows what corner they will hit in to. Sometimes is not a matter of playing the right shot, its a matter of diving the shot back. Most returns from a steep smash is to the play the shuttle back to the net. If you are guessing incorrectly, there is no option but to die. There is another uption, but that is to lose the point.
     
  18. jamesd20

    jamesd20 Moderator

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    My point ws not about deception or any other than basic principles. If you have the ability to recover to the middle before your opponent plays the shot, there is no need to dive. If you are positioned correctly in singles the maximum distance you have to travel is about 2.5 -3m. In doubles it is even less. There should be no need to dive moving that distance, from a stationary balanced position.

    If you want tolook at the international point of view if you look at the occasions the players do dive, it correlates to when they are
    1.out of position
    and
    2.unbalanced
    before recieving the oponents stroke. I am not going to discuss the causes of these reasons, but footwork, the quality, efficiency and speed of it is a big factor. If you can make the movement to the shuttle, play the correct stroke and move to thecorrect position before th opponent plays the stroke, then there will be no need to dive.

    personally, I would think it would not be the case that you are taught to dive, however as you should be going to IBA soon and attend the LIBA sessions, ask the top coaches there if they teach it, and were they taught it when they were learning. Or ask JR/TL in the professioanls players forum..........then come back and tell us the result!! and how to learn it. :) :)
     
  19. Matt Ross

    Matt Ross Regular Member

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    James...i should be a master when i come back, because i'll be falling on the floor dying of exhaustion and then getting up quick to carry on!! :D
     
  20. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

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    Could Diving Be a Necessary Evil?

    Yes, theoretically speaking if you have good footwork and good strokes, you shouldn't be diving!

    But if world number one, Lin Dan, and others have been seen so many times making dives to save points, it means that no matter how good you are, you will be caught on the wrong foot at times. ;) And diving as a last resort does help to salvage an almost hopeless situation for Lin Dan and others. Had they tried to do it the conventional way, most likely they would have failed! :D

    Whilst diving may not be included in a player's official training programme, it is certainly not a taboo for him to practise this on his own. And the fluency that Lin Dan has demonstrated time and again in this department appears to support the believe that he must have trained as hard as those famous English goalkeepers. As an Asian, Lin Dan has the advantage of not only better dexterity and coordination but also a lighter body weight. Maybe these help him to perform dives better than others.

    So, irrespective of what others may say, having the ability of an agile and deceptive dive in your badminton armoury may be a necessary 'evil'. Not only does its pays, it is often a delight to the spectators and you will be well rewarded by applause, applause, applause ... :D :D :D

    I'm sure LB will agree. ;)
     
    #20 Loh, Jul 24, 2004
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2004

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