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The Walkover & Withdrawal issue - rights and wrongs

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by cobalt, Sep 24, 2011.

  1. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    Even with 4 entries match fixing could be advantageous if these four players advance and meet in the draw.

    Only way to do "country" matches in individual cup-draws is to not allow more than 2 players per country into the draw, and mandate that these always are put on opposite halves. Then of course it would be unfair to individiual athletes from countries like china with many great players.. But I guess it is dependent on how the competition should be viewed.. If it is a competetion between Countries/federations (much like the olympics tend to be, counting "golds" for each country etc.) or if it is a competition between individual athletes.
     
  2. V1lau

    V1lau Regular Member

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    Just an idea I am throwing out; maybe they should let the athlete(s) who lost originally to the person who withdrew, to advance and play instead of giving a walkover!
     
  3. V1lau

    V1lau Regular Member

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    Default

    Me
    "As long as many top players are associated with a national body and not a true professional athlete, I think these alleged match fixing incidents will continue to be part of badminton. I am not sure there is a good way to penalize match fixer without harming athletes that are genuinely hurt other than making them professional and accountable to their own bank accounts."

    Kwun
    "why does associated with a national body make someone not a true professional? do we have a definition "professional athlete" somewhere?"


    My statement was vague after reading it again. I meant "independent" rather than "true".
     
    #23 V1lau, Sep 26, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2011
  4. viver

    viver Regular Member

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    I 'FULLY' agree with you. BWF should have a set of rules for China and another one for the rest, since China is the ONLY one doing it. :rolleyes:


     
  5. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    Interesting idea. but I am afraid it would not make much difference.. Then the team just let them "play" a "fixed" match, and loose by a huge margin, or loose in "warmup" way so the "choosen" player gets an easy win. It would depend on "review borads" and such to try to decide if the match seems fixed or not and then take actions.. I do not think this would work very well..

    But I think the idea of letting the eliminated player progress if WO occurs is a great idea anyway I think (even if it does not help the match-fixin issue). As the spectators would have the chanse of seeing a match instead of a non-played game..And maybe players would like an "extra life" sometimes in the tournament :) Problem would be with rating points calculation etc based on progression of course...
     
    #25 twobeer, Sep 26, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2011
  6. V1lau

    V1lau Regular Member

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    My original thought was the prize money allocation being the the problem. :)
     
  7. nokh88

    nokh88 Regular Member

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    Then the losing player who is financially better off may ask and pay the winning guy to do a walkover and allow him to play. Prize money in badminton is peanuts.
     
  8. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    True. Just as it happened last week at the 2011 Japan Open SS;

    .
     
    #28 chris-ccc, Sep 26, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2011
  9. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    No way... If BWF is to bring in a new rule, that rule should apply to ALL countries.

    You never know, other countries could follow China's way, if given the opportunity. :eek::eek::eek:
    .
     
  10. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    To be fair to China: you can't fault them if they are the strongest team in the world, and almost undisputed champs in every tournament. The other countries have allowed China to get away through complacency, bad management, corruption, lack of initiative, infighting, insufficient funding, short-sightedness etc etc.

    You can't talk of creating rules to specifically restrict the participation of one country. That is unfair, and it would ultimately harm the sport. Besides, it won't fly; that's like cutting your nose to spite your face and BWF will not do it.

    You can't arbitrarily work out a placement for seeded players to attempt to artificially restrict China's dominance. You are doing the sort of underhanded thing you accuse them of; and giving them the moral right to go on doing the stuff you hate so much.

    But in all of the above, the actions contemplated are reactive. They do not address the root problem at all. And the root problem is that BWF has set up a bunch of regulations and laws and strictures with enough loopholes to give anyone with notions of world dominance, the option to indulge in some shady moves.

    BWF have not yet thought of a way to nullify the effects of walkovers. Even though they are aware that it is all preparatory to OG seedings/rankings, they have not had the foresight to set up a completely independent system for eligibility. How difficult is it to work that out? Will they have something failsafe prepared for the OG 2016?

    The more I think about it, I am beginning to believe: China is not the problem. China is the symptom, or maybe the by-product of the problem. Though of course, you can't say you're not at fault for doing something wrong, just because someone else tempted you. You have to take ownership for your actions... :(
     
  11. viver

    viver Regular Member

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    I think you are being funny.

    As far as I know, when this 'strategy' was being used by the powerhouse(s), China was not a member of the IBF and an unknown power in badminton :confused:. It's really interesting that you say other countries could follow China. :rolleyes:

    Having said that, it does not mean I agree with any manipulations - with concrete evidence, of the results.


     
  12. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    I can think of four solutions :

    1) To limit each country's participation, so tournaments clearly becomes team-orientated. It might seems unfair to powerhouses like CHN, but if tourneys are team events, then one nation = x slot given is the only just and workable rule. After all, the one arguing that nations contests, not individuals, are CHN's management.

    2) When a player WO, the next two tourneys are close for him. This does not prevent match-fixing, but it is still better then nothing.

    3) Organize a "club league", one league with team events (like a surdiman cup that would last a whole year). And then once a year, a WC for individual competition.
    This last solution is interesting. We see something similar in tennis, with the regular tourneys and the fed cup. Some countries value more the individual tourneys and do not know much about team event, and some other countries focus on the fed cup (I know in France people pay more attention to fed cup then individual tourneys, even Grand Slam).
    The problems is that it ask for so much work from the BWF! I am afraid it is beyond their capabilities.

    4) Stay with the present rules and rely on morality, that is, shame. It is then the public's responsability to shame the bad people : if CHN team (or any other) don't play according to rules, then BOO them everytime they play (including other disciplines). The team has to bear responsibility, as it is the team that cheat.
    Perhaps some would think this is not enough. On the contrary, it is more powerful then any rule. If those national organizations do cheat for glory it means they are subject to shame (shame and glory go together). If a team get Boo everywhere, heads would roll, including very successful one like LYB.
    But to implement such a collective behavior there is nothing else to do but sharing our opinions and voicing them.
     
  13. sjoe

    sjoe Regular Member

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    All SS tournament is by invitation.
     
  14. pjswift

    pjswift Regular Member

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    Haven t you heard of police being paid in many different ways by the syndicate so the police can protect them and their actions?
     
  15. nokh88

    nokh88 Regular Member

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    Some places, the police are working hand in glove with the thieves. The police will come to the scene after the thieves have gone.
     
  16. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    are you implying something regarding the BWF/China Team scenario?
     
  17. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    I think nokh88 has a point. Are not some members of the BWF's ruling body ex-members of the CHN national squad?
     
  18. eaglehelang

    eaglehelang Regular Member

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    I dont think they would care, they win the title/gold, which is most important to them. Unless there's protection for the whistle blowers(players) & serious legal consequences for the guilty(sacking, jail term), no whistle will be blowing
     
  19. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    not at all.

    zero out of 11 BWF Executive Board members are from China.

    1 out of 14 BWF Council members are from China.
     
  20. nokh88

    nokh88 Regular Member

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    Not wonder CHN is so pissed off with BWF. Such a powerhouse in badminton but so poor representation.
     

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