Where do I hit to and what shot should I play, in this situation?

[ralphz]

Where do I hit to and what shot should I play, in this situation?

They lift to the back. alongside the middle of the left hand box.

I position myself to hit the shuttle. I'm marked "m" in the picture. The shuttle isn't super deep but reasonably deep.

My partner is not very good, and stands on the "other" side of the centre line.

If I smash it, and the opponents lift it cross court, I at the back, can probably cover it(the opponents don't put me under a lot of pressure, and I am improving at the back). And my partner cannot cover a cc lift from them when they are at the front, and my partner wouldn't try to either.

There isn't any sane reason I can see for my partner standing there.

If I smash straight, then my partner will probably fail to intercept a block from the opponents.

I have been to group coaching sessions in the past, and am used to the system described on the forum in some German videos as the tunnel system. Where P stands on my side of the centre line. And can thus intercept if the opponents block my smash. I haven't had training for when a partner is on the "other" side. Though I understand the principle that they'd cover 2 or 3 corners. Though in this case my partner would only be able to cover one corner, the one to their right, as they are not as such a level to cover more than that.

If I smash and they block it, we wouldn't get much advantage and would be under pressure.

So should I smash cross court?

I have heard the idea that your partner(at the front)'s position tells you where to e.g. smash it(if you are to do a smash). But that's normally been in conjunction with the instruction that they should stand on the side where I am.

A common thing one is told when beginning badminton is some dogma about not to hit cross court. But in this case maybe smashing cross-court is better than smashing straight.

I know I could do a drop, a punch clear, a defensive clear , but if I did smash, should the smash be cross court?

If I did a drop, should the drop be cross court?

I guess I could smash or drop to the centre line. But if I wanted to vary it then would it have to be cross court?

In this game, my opponents weren't great, and my partner there that was in that game, can play at the front. and back to some extent.

I play with good players sometimes but because of Covid restrictions, the club restricted us to not mixing players between courts , and out of some bad luck the grouping worked out like that.

 

[Budi]

Seems like your partner is somewhat begineer which would make an error themself without anu preasure.

I play few times when i play with beginner. Tho to balance the games, the opponent wont be that good either but at least not a beginner. Normally i will try to catch opponent confusion to play in the middle area. Or i will play alot on my partner area, playing low shot but rarely lift high & hope my partner could return it. Only when i see the opponent thinking i play alot of low shot & they stand closer to the net trying to intercept myshot, then i will lift it putting them in bad position. Why i rarely play lift, its coz in my situation, my partner most likely locked at the front & rarely move elsewhere & lifting would put me to defense agains smash in both side.
For cross court, only doing it when those area are unguarded coz when your opponent catch it & return straight, you need to rush for it & will exhaust you even more. Again as my opponent are not that skillfull, if i play straight rather than cross court, their best option also a straight as cross lift is quite demanding for them.

But when they get preasured & about to lose, they will lock on my partner & he will keep failing again & again until i lose. Nothing i can do if it come to this.

 

[Joran]

Good question, to be honest the majority of your smashes should be inbetween both opponents in doubles. It makes room for error on your part smaller. Besides this the opponents will have trouble to decide who will defend this smash. Another plus for this is that it is harder for the opponent to hit it back in corners. Think about it, what is easier hit a straight return into a corner. or to hit a return from the middle into a corner. Most players will make more errors with the last one. If they simply block this smash your partner will have it, even a beginner wil. Please never smash cross court, only when u know sure that it will be a score. Or the opponent on crosscourt is way weaker.

Conclusion : Smash in the middle, mix it up with indeed drops and punch clears to stay unpredictable

 

[ralphz]

Seems like your partner is somewhat begineer which would make an error themself without anu preasure.

Not a beginner, just a rubbish player(in the sense that in this scenario they stand on the wrong side for no good reason). There are lots of players have played for 5 years or more and are rubbish(in the sense that they have some really basic failings that players that have been coached for some years won't have). I'd be rubbish if I hadn't had coaching. (And it's all relative.. i'm still not county level and given my late start, I never will be!).

Using euphemisms like "beginner" for these people is problematic 'cos it's just not true.

Funnily enough that club has a rule of no beginners/improvers. Intermediate/Advanced only! (And as mentioned, I was unlucky, there were covid restrictions they had put in place that limited things as mentioned).

but rarely lift high

A clear means High to High (Is done from back)

A lift is Low to High (When done tends to be done from front or midcourt.. Extremely hard to do a decent lift from the back and indeed one wouldn't want to! I don't think i'm even able to do a good lift from the back even on my forehand side. Nobody would dream of aiming to lift it from the back!!) Nobody would ever attempt a lift from the back unless they were in desperation.. Or they had that super ability to do it well and wanted to show off, and I don't have that super ability.

I'm at the back.

What word do you mean there?

Only when i see the opponent thinking i play alot of low shot

What's a low shot?

I know what a low blow is. It's when somebody hits somebody else in the testicles. But I haven't seen that on a badminton court/ (Or even since primary school)

A drop would be the shuttle goes high to low

A net shot would be low to low , done from the front to the front, though wouldn't apply to me at the back.

Sometimes when at the back and they blocked it and it went past my partner, then I would do an underarm shot to the centre, causing them to lift it. I know that's a good shot.. though it doesn't really have a name.

Drives are low though they perhaps don't really apply that much to a back player in front-back situation.

For cross court, only doing it when those area are unguarded coz when your opponent catch it & return straight, you need to rush for it & will exhaust you even more. Again as my opponent are not that skillfull, if i play straight rather than cross court, their best option also a straight as cross lift is quite demanding for them.

Well since my partner is on the "other" side, and is OK at the net, they'd be able to intercept a block from them over there. And whether I can get a straight high shot from them after I cross court smash is another matter, I don't know 'cos i've almost never done that shot!

But when they get preasured & about to lose, they will lock on my partner & he will keep failing again & again until i lose. Nothing i can do if it come to this.

As mentioned.. Partner is OK in other aspects. Even at the back they can smash it sometimes.. They've probably had some coaching. A lot of rubbish players clear it a lot unnecessarily.. but this partner knows to hit down. And knows at the front not to lift it. A different type of rubbish player would be a singles player that plays doubles like singles, keeps clearing it.. lifts it at front.. doesn't intercept.. In that scenario I would not want to be at the front 'cos they do all the wrong shots so for them in this scenario i'd defensive clear it.. as that type of player is best in a sides situation.. This one is different than that, as they can play at the front, and when at the back they have the right idea of hitting down. Maybe I will ask them where they think I should hit it(though their English isn't good and communication with them is poor!)

EDIT/ADDED
Had similar situation another week. One or both players on the other side weren't too good either. This time, I cleared it, often to the weaker player, they wouldn't smash it. My partner stayed at the front like a lemon but was able to intercept any weak response. Easy win. Partner had a good low serve, they weren't able to step in and attack it. They lifted it ok.. Safest shot rather than a smash, was the clear, getting a weak response, and then either my partner takes it at the front with a winner or I take it from the back with a smash to win it. That kind of solved that situation!

 

[ralphz]

Good question, to be honest the majority of your smashes should be inbetween both opponents in doubles. It makes room for error on your part smaller. Besides this the opponents will have trouble to decide who will defend this smash. Another plus for this is that it is harder for the opponent to hit it back in corners. Think about it, what is easier hit a straight return into a corner. or to hit a return from the middle into a corner. Most players will make more errors with the last one. If they simply block this smash your partner will have it, even a beginner wil. Please never smash cross court, only when u know sure that it will be a score. Or the opponent on crosscourt is way weaker.

Conclusion : Smash in the middle, mix it up with indeed drops and punch clears to stay unpredictable

Thanks.. Yeah I can imagine that if I did a CC smash and they lift it straight it might be tough for me to get that one, though it's not something i've practised or done before. But, if tough for a regional player like you have mentioned you are, then would be very tough for me..

Would you say a cross court drop is risky? (assuming it's a good one and it isn't anticipated and the opponents can't get to the net and kill it, and opponents lift it straight)?

At regional level, what types of cross court shots do you tend to see and tend not to see?

 

[Budi]

Sorry, im in the mid of some boring training at my work. Kinda sleepy & as english is not my native, my word choice kinda stupidly chaotic & i didnt even reread it again before post it. My bad

Alright, i will fix what i explain & hopefully more understandable

Saying rubbish is kinda harsh tho sadly to say its true.

In my situation, this rubb... Errrr beginner are quite bad. Most of the time he will nail his shoes at the front & wont try to split when the ball fly high. Then his stroke are 50:50 hit or miss & the 50 part of hit also split into 50:50 good or bad return.

As long as the 2 opponent still try to challange me, i can still keep up with the games but when they lock & load all their arsenal to my partner, it will be the end as he will keep doing error shot & losing a point.

Back to my strategy:
1. Play mid shot between both opponent player. It can be drop shot or smash. Most of the time the opponent always become lag for deciding who takes the shuttle.
2. I rarely play high shuttle to the back court whatever its clear back to back or lift from the side mid area. I dont want to give the opponent a smash opportunity as my partner would stuck at the front most of the time & not to mention a smash from any player in my club can break his defense. So i would play my opponent mind thinking i will always do a drop shot & when i see them standing closer to the net, that when i will surprise them with clear to the back or lift if the opponent playing in the side mid area.
3. Cross court shot. Its a risky shot whatever its cross drop or clear cross. As it has the longest path which mean more time for opponent to act & a straight direction shot counter from opponent would force u to run to catch it (considering your partner are rubb...). So, unless the area are unguarded like your opponent formation are getting messy, dont do cross shot. So, simple straight return would give you more benefit. Ofcourse the opponent can do cross shot to counter your straight shot, but we are talking an average player to balance the games right. So cross clear would eat their energy & not to mention the quality shot from average player wont be deep enough to give you hell. Or if the do cross drop, its long path which mean longer time would (hopefully) be blocked by my partner easier.
4. Additional tips. Most player had a sleep mode in their body. So you can play some few shot to 1 target & suddenly when the other start to stand still/lowering his racket, you change target to surprise him. It work many time bellow advance player for sure. The lower the level the shorter the time to trigger his sleep mode

 

[Z-Force III]

I explained it douzen of times. Here again: The frontcourt player don't need to adjust to the backcourt player, the backcourt player need to adjust to the front court player and must play shots which travel through the reach of the front court player. Period.

If you prefer to play the mentioned tunnel, you need to explain it to your partner that you prefer to smash straight so he/she can adjust and position for your prefered shot selection. If you don't talk to her/him, you need to select the kind of shots which make the best out of this situation. For playing tunnel your smash must bang and penetrate any defence due steepness. If not, you shouldn't play tunnel because a sharp cross defence will force you to give the attack away.

I would smash between both players as @Joran suggested. I would also play slow and tight drophots to the middle so one of the players need to take them very low and tight to the net. This will also provoke misunderstandings between both players. Even a fast drop shot is possible. Returning the dropshot as a crosscourt netshot to any side is very very difficult to impossible and prone to go out. An early contact as push to the sides will be within the reach of your partner. So even a partner who have fallen asleep won't need to move.

Please never smash cross court, only when u know sure that it will be a score. Or the opponent on crosscourt is way weaker.

I kindly disagree, and would say "it depends" than "never". Here an example where it is possible and pretty close to @ralphz scenario, but I think the partner won't be capable to move fast front and back on his side. So I would say ralphz shouldn't do this with his partner, but it's not a no-no. It's a great way for rotation and bring the backcourt player in the front back to the backcourt. My partner use it often in mixed doubles to rotate with me when she is in the back. You will also discover this in professional XD when the woman is in the back. I hope you can understand the language (german) in the video.

Thanks.. Yeah I can imagine that if I did a CC smash and they lift it straight it might be tough for me to get that one, though it's not something i've practised or done before. But, if tough for a regional player like you have mentioned you are, then would be very tough for me..

You weren't responsible for the straight lift in this case. You should cover the cross court block. Your partner is so biased to one side, he won't be able to notice quickly what's happening.

Would you say a cross court drop is risky? (assuming it's a good one and it isn't anticipated and the opponents can't get to the net and kill it, and opponents lift it straight)?

Any cross court shot travel longer than straight or into the middle. So your opponent will have around 20-30% more time to react. No misunderstanding. Any good player wouldn't stand deep in court for cross court defence because smashs are flatter and less powerful. Perfect to counterattack. Even without a kill and anticipation you open the net. If your opponent reach early and can play a cross court net shot your partner won't be able because far away and I think you want to stay in the back so, you will recover after your shot into the middle of the last 1/3 of the back and nobody can take it, because you both cover only 3 corners. IMO a bad idea because wedge attack won't work like that. Sometimes there is nothing you can do when you partner a loose player, player who won't listen or don't want to communicate much.

 

[ralphz]

...For tunnel ...

Looking at this image from https://www.badmintoncentral.com/fo...-positioning-men-doubles.186458/#post-2785688



What i'm used to is "classic" in terms of where a front partner player would be. were I at the back and to one side.

So i'm a bit puzzled as to the difference between "classic" and "tunnel"?

I understand "wedge" is the one where the front partner gets 2 or 3 corners.

Also, in this scenario

But supposing my partner were doing things properly.. , but standing on that side he is standing on. So a "wedge" formation. (Why is it even called wedge - in the translated german terminology? - I guess you might know 'cos you know some German)

And suppose they block my smash straight. To what extent, on the x axis, is my partner meant to intercept in the area to his left?

Thanks

Note- I know on this forum some people don't like the subject shifting slightly and prefer a new thread for any discussion of something related to the question asked.. If you'd prefer I could ask in a new thread?

 

[Z-Force III]

Looking at this image from https://www.badmintoncentral.com/fo...-positioning-men-doubles.186458/#post-2785688

View attachment 197083

What i'm used to is "classic" in terms of where a front partner player would be. were I at the back and to one side.

So i'm a bit puzzled as to the difference between "classic" and "tunnel"?

Let me explain. The tunnel works very well if you aim your attack longline. So lift comes to the corner, you and your partner move to the same side of the court, the attacked get always played straight (longline) to provoke a straight block or a a loose shot to the net which the partner can kill or play close to the net to keep the attack going. The huge disadvantage is, that any cross court replies, especially if the attack is not every penetrating or steep can be countered easily and attacking rotations are difficult to manage if both players stand always biased to one side. The front court player must be very intuitive to notice that the backcourt player bang more towards the backcourt, need to move to the other side, to let the backcourt player forward, but even in this situation on a straight (longline smash) the frontcourtplayer needs to go out and move c-shaped around the shifting backcourt player on a straight lift. This is why I said that the attack must be strong and steep to give the opponent not many option. Weaker and flat smashers get always in trouble.

The so called classic is like the tunnel just the frontcourt player is more shifted towards the middle. The means less movement of the front court player, backcourt player should always attack through the middle. On a shorter lift, it is easier to rotate and let the backcourt player follow. Huge advantage is that you don't have sharp angles from the defending pair. Regardless in the back court or front court.

The difference from the video is following. Assumption is both players are right-handed. So the tunnel attacks from the around the head corner/backhand corner. The reach of the forehand is bigger. The classic there shows that the ataack come from the forehand side. A short cross court lift from a smash or a sharper cross defence makes a good moment to rotate or intercept. That's the difference by picture.

I understand "wedge" is the one where the front partner gets 2 or 3 corners.

Also, in this scenario

But supposing my partner were doing things properly.. , but standing on that side he is standing on. So a "wedge" formation. (Why is it even called wedge - in the translated german terminology? - I guess you might know 'cos you know some German)

And suppose they block my smash straight. To what extent, on the x axis, is my partner meant to intercept in the area to his left?

The front partner don't cover 3 corners at this moment. We don't say wedge to it in german. If I play with club mates or friends we say the translation of "broad attack" or "shifted attack". I just used here wedge, because I heard the terminology a few coaches here. The aim of the broad attack is to have to get a shifting between the roles frontcourt/backcourt player. Just look in the linked video of #7. That's wedge, the guy says "breiter Angriff" which means "broad/wide attack". As you can see the attack should be never played straight. The attack should played cross court or through the middle. It needs a good communication between both players and both players should be able to move fast forward and back to get behind the shuttle. That's nothing for unfit couch potatoes. If you smash straight (longline) in the wedge attack it won't work for the aim. It also don't work when you want to stay in the back, because the reason is the shifting of the roles.

Each formation has an aim and reasoning. Each system is designed to bring the front court player into the game in a different manner. I play also a mix of them all, but I play tunnel less often in MD and more often in XD. I play Classic more often in MD and very seldom to never in XD. I play wedge more in MD but sometimes in XD (when I'm in the front and my partner is in the back). Depends on situation, but me and my partners know us for 5+ years and play often together (like married), so you can't await that any non-familiar partner will get this, can do this and it will work smooth. Each system needs some practice. I always to drills for each system. Means I get feeded in the back court to be always able attack straight, middle or cross and get between a shorter lift to follow and kill. People who just play with 10+ different partners per month will never get into it without regular training and a coach who drill them to understand this. If you get partnered (and trust me I try to avoid it) with somebody who can't decide what we wanna play with me and just freeze, I feel like I get raped and pray to god that is over quickly.

 

[ralphz]

....

ok, thanks.. I'll put aside tunnel.

Regarding the wedge style, and I'll use the term "wedge" as it's in the screenshot in post #8

Is it the case with the wedge formation, that sometimes the player then at the front will cover 2 corners(one at front one at back), and sometimes 3 corners(two at front one at back)?

Also,would the front player be slightly further back when doing the wedge formation than with the classic? The screenshot in post #8 included below, puts the front player the same distance back, in classic and wedge, but I wonder if maybe the front player should be a bit further back in wedge, e.g. see below where I placed a red circle? ('cos they have to cover that back corner).

Thanks

 

[Z-Force III]

ok, thanks.. I'll put aside tunnel.

Regarding the wedge style, and I'll use the term "wedge" as it's in the screenshot in post #8

Absolute fine, I know what you mean.

Is it the case with the wedge formation, that sometimes the player then at the front will cover 2 corners(one at front one at back), and sometimes 3 corners(two at front one at back)?

I use you graphic as reference. If B hits he can't stand in the corner. Like in every doubles you move active to a shuttle and after you have hit you move into a neutral position for coverage.

So let's imagine you attack cross (drop shot or smash) what options does your opponent have:

rear:
lifting (cross) -> shot which travel the longest on court
lifting (straight) -> shot which travel shorter to the rear

net:
blocking (straight) -> shortest distance of travel
blocking (cross) -> longest distance at the net

if cross smash is a bit flat:
pushing (straight right&left)
driving

So, you wanna stand at B waiting for the longest shot and let F cover totally diagonal and straight shots with less distance to travel and fast pace and which are more likely played by the opponents? That won't work.

B should always move after his shot towards the center of his side to cover a cross drive or cross block (both shots travel longer than anything which F covers). B has enough time to move again to the cross lift and also has enough time to cover a cross net.

Please look at the german video I posted. The coach marked the area of coverage. F covers more net, less rear, B cover more rear less net. That's the diagonal line. B can't stand in the corner and have on court much more time to reach any reply than F. Why should you let F cover 3 corners, which he can't do very effective to maintain attack?

You will stand for a moment side by side. That's the reason why we call it broad/wide attack.

Also,would the front player be slightly further back when doing the wedge formation than with the classic? The screenshot in post #8 included below, puts the front player the same distance back, in classic and wedge, but I wonder if maybe the front player should be a bit further back in wedge, e.g. see below where I placed a red circle? ('cos they have to cover that back corner).

Thanks

That's a personally thing and good question. I said before that F should be able to move fast front-back on his side. It's also important to brief F, that he is mentally ready where he/she should move. You can't do this with a slow or weak guy. You need to answer the question first, if F is a guy who just stand on his side and don't know how to move well and fast and don't trust his partner to attack and freeze at this position or is he the person who is active and able to move front-back fast, can get behind the shuttle on the lift and attack? For me is this the basic requirement. I would say it depends, but since F covers the straight and middle of the net and just the lift to the corner, B can also help at the back so I would stand as F more towards net than midcourt, because the straight net reply is the reply which travels the shortest so have should give this most attention beside the straight drive.

If I were B I'm able to help to help in the straight corner. Great exercise to practice this is the drill 3 corners vs. 1 corner. IMO B should stand for the wedge not so deep in the corner and around 1m more towards center. For the cross lift he has plenty of time, no need to stand so deep and biased to one side, because cross replies have a higher distance to travel. Your questions is targeted towards a fading between systems and going from wedge into classic/tunnel. For many people doubles need clear rules to be exact who is responsible for this or that shot. That's absolutely toxic. There is a basic system built to play, but if my partner can't move or don't move I need to help. Sorry for not answering this clearly, but it really depends on the situation, the quality of attack, the partner, the positioning of the opponents and there abilities. You will more the case that B covers 3 corners (and should be able) than F covers 3 corners. It also depends of the straight lift. Is it played high and deep or is it more flat to intercept?

 

[ralphz]

....

Thanks. I will give a careful read to what you wrote there ..

But just to let you know, and to reply to a simple part now, I am well aware that to do it properly it needs drills with a partner.. and a partner that knows what they are doing. And both players on the same page. And communication. And a front player that really can cover the required areas. And doesn't really happen when mixing partners often.

So assume those things..re when I ask re rotation..

And indeed if I am at the front and a partner at the back can't move much and I know that they will be stuck in a corner after they hit it and I know the opponent's are targeting them, and they would kind of hope that I would take it, then I could come out and take it, and there is no risk of collision. And mostly re random club partners, I'd play classic, sometimes with an amendment agreed with them if they have some weakness and can communicate.

But for simplicity and properly understanding the system of wedge. Assume both players are doing it right and have drilled it and are on the same page and played regularly. So asking about wedge done properly!

Thanks

 

[ralphz]

B should always move after his shot towards the center of his side

If B hits he can't stand in the corner. Like in every doubles you move active to a shuttle and after you have hit you move into a neutral position for coverage.

Would a good player ever be in a scenario where they get "stuck", there and if so, what are possible causes? e.g. A)tiredness. Or, B)tiredness causing loss of form. or C)expecting something else and get caught. D)Having some kind of glitch e.g. been a while since they drilled doing that shot and recovering.

Would they normally stop playing before A/B/C happens?

It also depends of the straight lift. Is it played high and deep or is it more flat to intercept?

I suppose if B's shot is , when then lifted flat by the opponents, onto F's side, then F could step out and intercept, if F can cut it out earlier than B, but F shouldn't be going deep back, right?

Would it be the case in "classic" positioning too, that if it is lifted flat then F could/should step out and intercept, if they can cut it out earlier than B? Is that unlikely (or less likely?) to happen in "classic" positioning?

Why should you let F cover 3 corners, which he can't do very effective to maintain attack?

Please look at the german video I posted. The coach marked the area of coverage

In that video, looking at the position of the front player there, I can see that of the front corners, they'd only cover one front corner.

I can see that aside from their side of the net, the front player's position is totally set up for intercepting a flat lift, she's stepped quite a bit across and back(though not that far back), and I see there's no way a front player in that position would cover the other side of the net, (she's too far back and too a far across to take that other front corner). .

Only two areas, one front corner, and back area.

Though I guess not all the way to the back?, So she'd have her side of the net and some way towards her side behind her. And B has 3 corners?

B does have quite a bit of forward momentum on his smash when he does the scissor kick.. it'd be interesting if the video showed B covering the other rear corner after that scissor kick though it doesn't..
I have heard that one can do a scissor kick with the non-racket leg going sideways, so less forward momentum, good for covering the back.. OR, as he does, a scissor kick going forwards. That forward momentum scissor kick is maybe not ideal if it turns out that they lift it deep to the back on the other side to where he is? I suppose classic style they'd tend to use the scissor kick where non-racket foot goes out to the side?

Are straight shots from B completely wrong?

In classic(F biasing B's side), would it be wrong for B to play it cross court?

In wedge(F standing the other side, and like in that video) , would it be wrong for B to play it straight?

In the video, we see B do a shot to the middle of the court 2:01-2:06), and a cross-court one (2:09-2:16), well and to good effect.

At 0:36 B hits it between them not quite straight. and no response / follow up is shown.

Hence I wonder whether straight shots from B would be wrong in Wedge(i.e. F there)., Or, as wrong as a cross court done in Classic formation?

Thanks