Sorry about my poor mind reading ability, can you please elaborate more specifically and technically of your proposal??
Your theory can also be applied to H2H ranking, just because one has a better H2H ranking does not mean he/she is better than the lesser. The latest example would be LCW beat LD or Sho beat TH in JP open. Remember that H2H records a long time performance (in the case of TH and PG its more than 10 yrs) so it does not truely reflect the current performance.
The 2010 Japan Open SS has just concluded with LCW defeating LD . Another thing about this debate is that some BCers are found to be fans of one of our 2 top players, namely; LCW and LD. The 2010 Japan Open SS has just concluded with LCW defeating LD. Perhaps our LCW's fans will now come in to post that the H2H results between LCW and LD could be changing in favour of LCW from now onwards. .
Why does it have to be straight set?? So are you saying now that LCW makes excuses?? Cmon mate, Im a TH fan and when watching that game i knew there is something wrong with LCW. Look Im not gonna debate you on this (as this is the wrong thread) I leave that to MAS fans to have a go about that. I already said why not and the suggestions i made, and wont repeat that again. You can flip through the pages if you want, if you dont i also dont mind. Again, i already explained why that is not fair. If you dont care/understand about it, then there is nothing i can do. All i care is i speak out and thats about it. Complicated? look whos talking This one i think need a bit of clarification. The first point is the thread starter jumping to a conclusion that LD is the BEST player. How could he made such assumption to start with even when the hard core LD fans would ask on the "Is LD the best player ever?" thread. How would you say that if 5 yrs ago someone made a thread titled "who's the world's no.2 LCW or LD?" and you open it you find out that he assume that TH is the best player. I think its a bit offensive. If you dont think it is, then i have no more to say. Its like going into a Man Utd vs Arsenal match or an EPL forum and say Real Madrid is the best club in the world (although it maybe is), and ask which of you two going to take 2nd?? Im sure you will get a few round of slaps. secondly i think the discussion then move on the use of H2H record to come to that conclusion. At this point i think the thread starter tried to use some method of calculation to justify his already subjective opinion on the fact that LD is the BEST. Can i say that i just dont agree to use only H2H record to find out the best player (let alone 2nd or 3rd)? and I stand on my opinion from the 1st post i made on this thread. At this stage of discussion, Im wanting to hear from 2cents about his suggestion i hope it will be a great idea and something better than your 1 stroke 2 hits idea.
- LCW makes excuses? Who's the one who brought up the injury to LCW in the first place?????.. - Since you don't agree, still without a reason to back it up, on the use of the H2H as the sole basis to determine who's the "best" player (as suggesetd by freelast), then I suggest to re-read the thread title and do the comparison of all the top players. That's all. Let's stick to the topic and maybe after you do all the H2H comparison of all the top players you'll find the answer to all of your questions. It's very simple and straighforward!
This is your words: "LCW was able to battle through 3 games. If it was really2 bothering him, then i would imagine he would've lost in straight games or call it a WO" if this is not an accusing LCW then please tell me what it is??? Yes he was injured, thats the fact. I brought it up because you said that its LCW fault that he lost to TH, so that we cant complaint about the credibility of CJ winning the WC. Remember thats when someone said that CJ title is less credible since he did not meet strong opponents. You suggested to me to read through and not replying quickly, i guess i can say the same thing about you. Let this be clear i made my suggestion and there is a strong reason why i dont agree with H2H. Why do i have to stick with the topic when the topic itslef is so misleading and wrong?? I have a topic here, and its called "the stairway to hell". I wonder if you would stick with it?? On the contrary I suggest you diggest my posts and see the light of the day
Let me add, there are many H2H threads on BC for eg. this one http://www.badmintoncentral.com/for...head-to-head-record-between-Lindan-and-Taufik) but this the 1st thread i seen that jump to a conclusion that someone is the best.
to me h2h is not the real thing, its only to show us the winnings and losings between 2 players and it can be misleading. the record stands today, lin dan and lcw at 14-7 with the last one won by lcw. if you think the h2h is the real thing, do you still think it is the real thing if lin dan won the first 14 encounters and lcw won all the last 7?
- See post #198. See who brought up & mentioned LCW's injury in the first place. If you can't understand what i was trying to point out abt LCW vs. TH match, i was trying to point out that based on LCW's H2H record and his recent success vs. Taufik, he should've won vs. Taufik. To me, if LCW was able to battle through 3 games, it means his injury plays a minor factor. That is to counter that InvinKoh's reasons why he thought CJ's victory was less credible (to counter freelast's original reasoning). There was no mention of LCW's injury at all from me in the first place until you brought it up; if you saw it, please show me. So how can i accuse LCW of using his injury as an excuse for his loss? - For your second point, i still can't find your reasonings. And if you like to start a new topic, please open up a new thread. The mod has changed this thread topic to something simple and one can research and compare. Is it that hard? Or you simply want to ignore just for the sake of ignoring? Or if you can't do the research & comparison, maybe you can ask freelast or jamesd20 to help you out. Btw, LCW winning his last match still shows he has a losing H2H record vs. LD...it's crystal clear, folks!
Look i wont waste anymore time for it. Based on your nature, Im sure after this post you will make another marry go around comment/post. But i wont follow your path. I said on previous post that LCW was injured, otherwise he would have likely to beat TH on the last WC. And i said it again when you ask who brought it up, it was me (this is the 3rd time i said it). The story went (for those who did not follow the conversation) that InvinKoh mentioned that CJ WC title is less credible because he did not beat worthy opponent. And the ctjcad countered the argument that its not CJs problem since LCW lost to TH, if LCW won then he would have likely to meet CJ in the final. Then i pointed out that LCW was injured, thats the fact i did not make it up. The next thing is the sentence by ctjcad "LCW was able to battle through 3 games. If it was really2 bothering him, then i would imagine he would've lost in straight games or call it a WO" . I leave that to everyone to decide what it means. As for the topic, dont be confused between the thread title and the topic inside it. OK, thank you mods for making this thread a little better. But you can have any beautiful title you want and still have a crappy topic to talk about. Final comment i make, why dont you answer pBmMalaysia question which i think is a very2 good question. If LCW wins his next 5 meeting againts LD, do you still think that LD is a better player??? If the answer is no, then what a crappy thing to have H2H as a barometer. And if the answer is yes, then it underscores how bias/subjective a badminton fan can be. Which in both cases proven what i have been advocating all a long in this thread. Thats all from me, i hope you all enjoy good badminton
WHOA never expect this debate has gone this far. Anyway just to clarify, it doesn't mean if LCW was able to battle through 3 games and we can conclude that his injury plays a minor factor. In fact if you look back into the game, there was a sudden change of scoring pattern at game 3 which I personally would think that he injured his back during game 3. To me, I still stand on my point that CJ winning in WC does not carry so much of weight. And in the end of the day, LCW back injury was certified by professional doctor. In addition to that, with LCW recent performance in Japan Open I think there is no doubt that LCW is obviously one league above CJ.
that remind me that one chess genius once said that he never lost a match to a 'fit' opponent. the loser always came up with excuses.
he doesn't know what is back injury, maybe to him its like sudden cardiac arrest once lcw got it, he would not be able to move so must walk over and i would not go to the extend to explain this injury stuff as i think you know why.. i also think the next post from invinkoh is worth reading..
- My man, if you think LCW hurt his back in the 3rd game, which you feel affected his game and eventually the outcome, then i ask, why didn't he finish Taufik in 2 games. Why prolonged it to 3 games? I'm basing that based on their H2H record and LCW recent success vs. Taufik. - Like i already mentioned, i already put LCW as no.2 all the way from page 1, if you read my very initial posting. Essentially the same as yours. And yes, i based it on his H2H records vs. the other top players. Not based on a tournament performance because i know debates like this and reasoning over whether a player's win would appear. For me, it's simple, just to use the undisputed H2H record and compare the players. - How come no credit to Peter Gade for giving CJ a hard fought match, despite Gade losing? * Yoppy, thank you for admitting it was post #198 which initially suggested abt LCW's injury. And even if LCW wins the next 5-10 matches vs. LD, he will still have a losing record. That's all we're concerned here. H2H records between all the top players (not just by winning 5 straight matches vs. LD and then we can figure out who's "best"; but it's gotta be overall vs. the rest of the top players; just like the example i mentioned abt if Gade has a 10-0 H2H record vs. LD, it doesn't mean he's better than LD if he has a losing H2H records vs. the other top players). Just like what the thread title is suggesting and yes, that is what the thread starter wanted to use as basis. Like i mentioned multiple times, it's simple and straightforward!
- My fren, if every match we can based on H2H records, then the recent Japan Open LD would have finished off LCW in 2 straight game. Sometimes, sports have different factor that affect its outcome includes tactics, stamina, maybe luck, etc. That is why it could be a 2 games or 3 games finish. But in the end of the day, the better player based on track record normally will win the game if none of them is specially on form/ off form. - If we have already agreed that LCW is obviously a league above CJ, why are the debates here? We have verified that LCW was indeed having back injury by the professional doctor. Besides that, LCW have not lost to Taufik since 2009 5 times in a row and out of 5 times there was once it drag into game 3. Hence I won't be surprise if during WC it genuinely has to drag into game 3 and eventually LCW had a back injury during that game. - In addition to that, Chen Jin has a 3 - 1 H2H records towards Taufik and 7 - 3 H2H records towards Peter Gade. I don't see a reason why he shouldn't win WC and why his WC champion would carry weight in this case. If you haven't look at his route to WC Men Single Champion, allow me to pen it here for your reference with remarks in case you are still not clear what am I trying to point out. Chen Jin - Ville Lang 21-14 21-14 (If he never win this it would be a big upset) Chen Jin - Kestutis Navickas 21-16 21-16 (Same as above) Chen Jin - Ashton Chen 21-17 21-10 (Same as above) Chen Jin - Hsueh Yi Hsuan 22-24 21-5 21-13 (if Hsueh won the game it would be an upset) Chen Jin - Peter Gade 19-21 21-8 21-11 (H2H records 7-2 refer to above) Chen Jin - Taufik Hidayat 21-13 21-15 (H2H records 3-1 refer to above) As an conclusion, Chen Jin did not outperformed himself in the past to win the gold medal for Men Single in WC. What credit he should get for us to think that his gold in WC carry a huge weight that we can start to consider he's in the same league as LCW?
yoppy, i think you are still unable to get anything across try this: the h2h for player X and Y now stands at 30-1 over 5 years say, if Y starts consistently beating X for year 6 and their h2h ends up 30-11 anybody here still agrees X is still the best player among the 2 even though he still has a h2h record of 31-11? no doubt h2h record at a first glance, still shows very impressive record for X but it doesn't show the last 10 outings was won by Y thus, to use h2h record for comparing 2 players there are limits to it and i would not go through that again :crying: answering question with question.. here it looks very hard to debate or discuss
that was a constructive post, i must say but it depend on how one wants to read it i think the mod can give us an opinion !
pBm, I have a question for you which I dont understand. Since LD has the most successful H2H record among the top players, why aren't he the WR#1 player in the circuit now? There must be a reason right?
i think these are the main 2 reasons: 1/ simply lin dan isn't competitive enough to enter and win as many tourney as he can 2/ world ranking isn't based on accumulating records unlike h2h
1.) That means LD (his fans of course) is simply riding on past glory let say a match victory over some players as far back to 2002 let say and still make that count today!? If that is the case than that's the only thing left they can cling on. 2.) So world ranking is based on points accumulations againts the whole field of players in international arenas and unlike the H2H thing which only comprises of me, you and him right?
