2014 Li-Ning BWF WORLD Championships : Day-6 (30th August 2014) - SEMIFINALS

[renbo]

I agree. I have never liked Saina's sportsmanship. I am absolutely confident that Sindhu will go further than Saina.
Also she did say about LCW after beating Saina. She said that "if you work hard, you can beat anyone. Instead of complaining Saina should work harder. Just see LCW and his attitude."

I also dislike Saina's sportmanship. Nevertheless, I think the question she raise is legitimate, even if one can disagree.
For my own opinion on that matters, I believe Badminton is too much into nationalistic sentiments. it should get away from the nationals associations and encourage individual competitors, like in tennis. Then there would be no questions about quotas, only seeded entries. But that is just my opinion

 

[renbo]

renbo, you baffle me and your intention with this post is not worth rebutting, I'm sorry to say. I just hope your anti-CHN sentiment doesn't get the better of your good sense and balanced view of matters.

Justin, I have no anti-Chinese sentiment, it is quite the opposite. But I am against nationalistic views, whatever the country.
I think if you want to ponder on one's intention (in this case mine's), you should ask the person what are his intention, because intentions are inside the person, you can easily miss them.
I truly believe LXR's rebuttal was not appropriate, though I do not share SN's opinion about quotas by countries. But she is only in her early 20's, so this kind of hot reaction is quite natural, especially among competitors.

 

[lippro]

Even though LXR's comment "beat me first, then she can talk" is rather provocative if you look at it on the surface, I believe that Justin's interpretation represents correctly what she really meant: "Saina shouldn't try to limit number of Chinese participants to increase her chances of winning, she should rather improve herself, since she would be facing Chinese opponents capable of beating her even if the number of Chinese players in tourneys were curbed."

Also, the fact that LXR lost has nothing to do with the validity of her statement; if anything, it corroborates her claim, as Carolina Marin was able to beat Chinese oppositions multiple times en route to winning the title, showing that it doesn't matter how many Chinese players there are in your way, winning or losing depends on your capabilities as a player. This is exactly reflective of LXR's statement to Saina that she should work on her strengths rather than be concerned about oppositions being too strong.

Nevertheless, LXR's mentioning of LCW was probably not the wisest way of justifying her statement. Not only has LCW be beaten countless times by the likes of Chinese players such as LD and CL, he is also arguably a supporter of the proposal to limit the number of Chinese players in tournaments as he openly voiced his opposition to LD's wildcard in WC 2013 saying that he would have to beat more "Chinese opponents" to win the title.

All in all, in the light of LCW's and LXR's continuous losses at WC, let us all just take a moment to grasp how great LD is as a player. It has been showed time and time again that the most dominant forces often crumble on the biggest occasions, yet LD has been able to produce the goods almost every time he has competed on these stages. 5 WC and 2 Olympic golds really speak for themselves; LD is by far the greatest player of this generation, even the greatest of all time despite the "you cannot compare players across eras" argument by his naysayers.

 

[renbo]

I think the appropriate answer to Saina is that the Tournaments organized by the BWF are based on competition among individuals, not countries. That is why we have same-countries players facing each others at some point. In that respect, there is the same relation between two Chinese players competing for a title then between a Chinese and a player from another nation. One is the winner of the title, the other the runner up.
But that is quite ideal. The reality is that National Associations are heavily involved in the participation of players, to a point where most of the people have the misleading idea that the players represent their country.

 

[mindreader]

I don't cherry pick guys. MF said that at that moment (WC 11) LCW was the best. What we are debatting (in case you forgot) was that MF was (or was not) biased when he said so. I believe his opinion was sound, argumented. You just had to follow badminton during that period to realise it.

First of all, it's rather obvious that Frost has favourites, but let's set that aside for a moment.

Quite frankly, I don't particularly care whether he is biased towards, or biased against a certain player, or association. Whether he thought it over in his head or not, his or your assessment that Lee Chong Wei is better than Lin Dan in 2011, or having more momentum in 2001, is wrong. PERIOD. Lin Dan is AT LEAST, a class above Lee Chong Wei. PERIOD.

And as I've mentioned previously, the longer Lee Chong Wei doesn't win a World Championship, especially against Lin Dan, the more embarrassing those claims become for you. Your claim that a two-to-one head to head record in favour of Lee Chong Wei (in a portion of a year, no less) is nothing short of hilarious. Believe it or not, if two competitors are really so close together, stringing two wins together really shouldn't be mentioned as any sort of a big deal. Yet you talk about it as if it's some sort of accomplishment. That alone tells which player is a cut better.

 

[Devendra]

First of all, it's rather obvious that Frost has favourites, but let's set that aside for a moment.

Quite frankly, I don't particularly care whether he is biased towards, or biased against a certain player, or association. Whether he thought it over in his head or not, his or your assessment that Lee Chong Wei is better than Lin Dan in 2011, or having more momentum in 2001, is wrong. PERIOD. Lin Dan is AT LEAST, a class above Lee Chong Wei. PERIOD.

And as I've mentioned previously, the longer Lee Chong Wei doesn't win a World Championship, especially against Lin Dan, the more embarrassing those claims become for you. Your claim that a two-to-one head to head record in favour of Lee Chong Wei (in a portion of a year, no less) is nothing short of hilarious. Believe it or not, if two competitors are really so close together, stringing two wins together really shouldn't be mentioned as any sort of a big deal. Yet you talk about it as if it's some sort of accomplishment. That alone tells which player is a cut better.

Hey guys!
How does one like this post?

 

[renbo]

First of all, it's rather obvious that Frost has favourites, but let's set that aside for a moment.

Quite frankly, I don't particularly care whether he is biased towards, or biased against a certain player, or association. Whether he thought it over in his head or not, his or your assessment that Lee Chong Wei is better than Lin Dan in 2011, or having more momentum in 2001, is wrong. PERIOD. Lin Dan is AT LEAST, a class above Lee Chong Wei. PERIOD.

And as I've mentioned previously, the longer Lee Chong Wei doesn't win a World Championship, especially against Lin Dan, the more embarrassing those claims become for you. Your claim that a two-to-one head to head record in favour of Lee Chong Wei (in a portion of a year, no less) is nothing short of hilarious. Believe it or not, if two competitors are really so close together, stringing two wins together really shouldn't be mentioned as any sort of a big deal. Yet you talk about it as if it's some sort of accomplishment. That alone tells which player is a cut better.

Generally speaking, I also think LD is the best player in the world, and of badminton's history. But I think LCW's level during this period was fantastic. Actually, I remember seeing an interview of LD on Chinese tv, where he was talking about LCW. He was saying that he and his coaches were studying his play, and considering his speed and his shots, they could not understand why LD won so consistently against him!
The thing with LCW, as I think everyone should recognize, is that he has a mental barrier.

 

[renbo]

I don't understand the need for many badminton followers to state in an absolute manner who is the best, or be so sensitive about who should be said to be the best. It must be related to age. It is some kind of worshipping

 

[Jonc108]

Thanks jonc for including india among the elite list. We are nowhere near denmark or malaysia or china or indonesia. Infact we created history by winning bronze medal in uber cup for the first time. Not like as if you are talking about lesson. Infact, japan really taught a lesson to CHINA . I am wondering how come you forgot that . Again this time we got another bronze medal in WC which is also a history.

As a badminton fan, I must agree your point that saina should not have gone to media. That is not good. But also I should tell that li xuerui should not have attacked saina for that.. Though saina's statement was generalised one , li xuerui personnally attacked saina. That's not fair on her part. Within 48 hours, she paid the price. She lost to a non-chinese player again.

I agree that Saina's opinion is legitimate, but LXR's answer is not, being personal. Whatever we think of Saina's opinion on that matter, it is her right to speak it.

Marin's success just proved vividly how naive and wrong what Saina and even LCW's complaint of too many Chines players and lack of supporting teammates, as well as the legitimacy of LXR's response to Saina.

Don't forget that after her loss to Marin, LXR (even LYB) did not find any excuse but praised Marin for her great performance, and said that in this match, Marin is simply too good that LXR could not find a good way to beat her.

Saina had the right to say anything (coz that speaks her heart), yet we have the right to judge that she doesn't have the spirit and heart of a true sports athlete... she's just lack of the dare to challenge for the best!!! this is the main reason why SN and LCW usually crushed before pressure.... otherwise they could win more....

 

[Jonc108]

In fact, after hearing LYB's praise on BWF's effort in promoting badminton in less-badminton-developed countries that brought the success like Marin's, i really suspect that the success of Japan man's team, Intanon and Marin could be another kind of match-fixing... ... so that badminton will not be threatened of its status in OG....

of course this is joking... yet we must agree this is good for the sports.

 

[losima]

In fact, after hearing LYB's praise on BWF's effort in promoting badminton in less-badminton-developed countries that brought the success like Marin's, i really suspect that the success of Japan man's team, Intanon and Marin could be another kind of match-fixing... ... so that badminton will not be threatened of its status in OG....

of course this is joking... yet we must agree this is good for the sports.

how true, badminton is already in danger after the london olympics. so in the long run, getting in more countries is beneficial in the long term.

so one day, wei2 will win the olympic gold and we will celebrate it until morning after.

 

[yamsyams]

I agree. I have never liked Saina's sportsmanship. I am absolutely confident that Sindhu will go further than Saina.
Also she did say about LCW after beating Saina. She said that "if you work hard, you can beat anyone. Instead of complaining Saina should work harder. Just see LCW and his attitude."

Not to sound combative, but do you have a link to the article where LXR was quoted as such? None of the English reports that I have read on the matter makes any mention of LCW, neither do the Chinese ones.

 

[mindreader]

Generally speaking, I also think LD is the best player in the world, and of badminton's history. But I think LCW's level during this period was fantastic. Actually, I remember seeing an interview of LD on Chinese tv, where he was talking about LCW. He was saying that he and his coaches were studying his play, and considering his speed and his shots, they could not understand why LD won so consistently against him!
The thing with LCW, as I think everyone should recognize, is that he has a mental barrier.

You know what I would find refreshing? Dropping the Lee Chong Wei has mental barrier charade. Because when Lin Dan won against Lee Chong Wei, the last couple of times they met (even when Lin Dan was not in the best of conditions), he still dictated the matches. His control of the court is phenomenal. Even when he was behind, one can get quite comfortable with the feeling that he was going to win at the end.

In World Championship 2013, Lin Dan's was clearly a step behind. His net play was atrocious. Those piercing attacks was used seldom. But how does a technically inferior player dictate a match, having not played for over six month? At one point one's gotta drop the "mental game" excuses.

 

[galaxyduo]

In World Championship 2013, Lin Dan's was clearly a step behind. His net play was atrocious. Those piercing attacks was used seldom. But how does a technically inferior player dictate a match, having not played for over six month? At one point one's gotta drop the "mental game" excuses.

You and I must have been watching the wrong match. LD was actually a step ahead of LCW. If you watch last year's match between LD and LCW, LD barely smashed and was playing the most defensive version of badminton I have ever seen on the pro circuit - LD was actually playing a "rally" version of badminton. Please find me a match of 2 players that are closely ranked and where one player smashed less than LD did against LCW in the 2013 WC; you probably wont' find such a match.

LD played the exact same style against Simon Santoso this year in the first 2 sets. Again, observers like you thought LD was slow and had lost a step. Fast forward to the third set against Simon Santoso and you will see who looked slow at the end.

What you miss is that only a technical superior player can play a defensive/rally style against his opponent and still win. If you are technically inferior, you are ultimately forced to attack to win the set. If you are technically superior, you can play defensive/rally badminton and get away with winning the set.

 

[Devendra]

You know what I would find refreshing? Dropping the Lee Chong Wei has mental barrier charade. Because when Lin Dan won against Lee Chong Wei, the last couple of times they met (even when Lin Dan was not in the best of conditions), he still dictated the matches. His control of the court is phenomenal. Even when he was behind, one can get quite comfortable with the feeling that he was going to win at the end.

In World Championship 2013, Lin Dan's was clearly a step behind. His net play was atrocious. Those piercing attacks was used seldom. But how does a technically inferior player dictate a match, having not played for over six month? At one point one's gotta drop the "mental game" excuses.

Excuses, all that you are capable of. Lin Dan vs LCW H2H is 23-9 (including Asian Games)
This doesn't happen by fluke.
In comparison H2H of LCW and chen long is 9-9. So basically LCW is at approximately the same level as chen long.

 

[Cheung]

Lin Dan and Lee Chong Wei.

Can't live with them, can't live without them.

The 'discussion' will go on forever.

 

[renbo]

Excuses, all that you are capable of. Lin Dan vs LCW H2H is 23-9 (including Asian Games)
This doesn't happen by fluke.
In comparison H2H of LCW and chen long is 9-9. So basically LCW is at approximately the same level as chen long.

I don't agree, because CL not only faces LCW, but other players too. So you have to look at the whole records. The H2H is not the ultimate truth. For example, LD had problems playing Park, a quite average player.
For the 13 WC, what was said about LD's style only emphasize his tactical skills.

 

[renbo]

Lin Dan and Lee Chong Wei.

Can't live with them, can't live without them.

The 'discussion' will go on forever.

I very much agree... But why people need to be insulting when someone praise an opponent of the chosen hero baffles me

 

[Accordaz]

Thanks for clearing the insulting comments / trash here. But I do not understand why my first comment to a quoted post here has been deleted. It was a comment to the air condition thing which someone has argued for and I strictly argued against it.
(I'm not really offended, but after putting some effort to write it down, it's a little bit pity to see that it has been deleted )

 

[mindreader]

You and I must have been watching the wrong match. LD was actually a step ahead of LCW. If you watch last year's match between LD and LCW, LD barely smashed and was playing the most defensive version of badminton I have ever seen on the pro circuit - LD was actually playing a "rally" version of badminton. Please find me a match of 2 players that are closely ranked and where one player smashed less than LD did against LCW in the 2013 WC; you probably wont' find such a match.

LD played the exact same style against Simon Santoso this year in the first 2 sets. Again, observers like you thought LD was slow and had lost a step. Fast forward to the third set against Simon Santoso and you will see who looked slow at the end.

What you miss is that only a technical superior player can play a defensive/rally style against his opponent and still win. If you are technically inferior, you are ultimately forced to attack to win the set. If you are technically superior, you can play defensive/rally badminton and get away with winning the set.

I don't know why you responded to me. I said, and I'm saying, Lin Dan is the superior player, technically or otherwise.

When I said Lin Dan was "a step behind," it was against his usual self. Let's admit it, Lin Dan's timing at the World Championship 2013 was way off. He hit into the net at least nine or ten times. Those aren't mistakes he would make repeatedly if he had actually played instead of taking six months off.

Despite that, I said Lin Dan dictated the match and that one could get quite comfortable he was going to pull through in the end, because his court control and understanding of the game (both skills) is far superior to Lee Chong Wei.

It was in response to renbo's assertion that Lee Chong Wei is the technically more superior player and his only problem is mental.