Badminton, BWF, CHN, SSF tournament

Discussion in 'Super Series Master Finals 2008' started by chris-ccc, Dec 16, 2008.

  1. ye333

    ye333 Regular Member

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    So you are saying Chinese players are not "good soldiers"? :D Seriously, if team China is "exhausted" due to OG, who is not? if TH came because of sponsor pressure, why did MK/HS come? Why did JJS/LYD come? Why did PG come? They all attended OG, didn't they?

    The key is still that this SSF is a meaningless tournament. It's meaningful at the individual level, thanks to the big money, but it's meaningless at the country/team level, and country/team is the boss in China.

    Say it this way. Teams chose to do their "winter training" instead of attending SSF shows exactly that this SSF is not important to them. Otherwise they would change their training schedule. Do you ever see a European soccer club skip UEFA Champion League because its players are too tired to perform at their best? :cool:

     
    #41 ye333, Dec 19, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2008
  2. RedShuttle

    RedShuttle Regular Member

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    If you don't understand the pressure and fatigue the OG brought to the Chinese people in general and the sports people in particular, there is not much more to say. As much as they loved the Beijing Olympics, it seems to me that not many Chinese people want another OG in China any time soon.

    If some people insist on SS Masters being the top and most prestigious tournament on schedule, that's another dead-end for discussion. In time, it may well be. Right now, it is not even a regular event on the schedule.

    Even at the individual level, an athlete has to balance between long term career and short term gains. You have to give TH and WMC full credit for attending. There are many forces at work. I don't think there is a clear cut decision. Players drop out of regularly scheduled meets all the time. Just look at the withdrawal threads in here.

    Please don't be ridiculous with soccer example, the training season for Euro soccer is in the summer. Winter is the mid season.
     
  3. ye333

    ye333 Regular Member

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    Are you saying only Chinese players are exhausted? :eek: I have mentioned MK/HS, JJS/LYD, PG, they all attended OG and yet they attended the SSF. In fact, many Chinese players attend quite a few SS events after OG. If fatigue is the main reason, why did they attend those tournaments?

    I don't know others but what I am saying is why this SSF is not "the top and most pretigious" (in fact far far away from it) -- I never "insisted" that SSF is an important tournament. The reason is that tournaments for individuals do not have much "growth space" in the current country-based system.

    One solution may be to cancel World Championship; The other is to pray that the Chinese league will grow into the badminton NBA -- although it hasn't been born yet LOL.

    Ever think about why the training season for soccer is in summer? Because that is the only time available. If you take that away, no training time anymore. They train in summer because other times there are important matches to play, not the other way around.

    Btw how can the 4-day SSF seriously affect a 3-month winter training session? LOL.

     
    #43 ye333, Dec 19, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2008
  4. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    Understood..

    ..i was doing a comparison between what BWF/national associations are doing & what you guys did (having fundraising and shelling out money out of your own pockets). Opposite.

    Btw, here's the discussion on the idea of having less SS tourneys but more prize money as an option:
    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46078
    And as we find out now, the scheduling, this yr, is really turning into almost prophetic..:p
     
    #44 ctjcad, Dec 19, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2008
  5. RedShuttle

    RedShuttle Regular Member

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    Good thread. BWF is killing the geese that lay golden eggs. What were they thinking?
     
  6. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    CHN decides for the their whole team to not participate in the 2008 SSF

    .
    RedShuttle ... It is not that we are saying that we are not concerned about our players' health and/or fitness. In fact, for this 2008 SSF, many have expressed concerns about the injuries carried by WMC and TH, when both of them decided to participate.

    To me, the beauty here is that individual players can decide for themselves, even though their decisions may be seen to be 'foolish'. But, it is the freedom and the independence of the players that we are talking about here.

    Yes, talking about the CHN team, IMHO, many of their players are found lacking in fitness.
    It should be good for CHN to take a break. However, talking about Lin Dan, he is as fit and as capable as we can well see.. But just because some of his teammates are in poorer condition, CHN decides for the their whole team to not participate in the 2008 SSF, I can only say that this is just not right for Lin Dan.
    .
     
    #46 chris-ccc, Dec 19, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2008
  7. RedShuttle

    RedShuttle Regular Member

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    I don't think we want to turn BC into an ideology forum, at least not in a "Badminton Tournaments" forum.

    There are always gives and takes in this world, with a sponsor or with the national badminton association. If one is "free" to oblige to the sponsor, one is also "free" to oblige to the national association.

    The scenario of LD's saying "No" to the badminton association is neither here nor there. Let's just not waste time on it in this forum.

    Back to badminton for a moment, LD is prominently among those who are obviously distracted from badminton since the OG. You see a lot more beauty shots of LD than badminton photos. The Chinese team pull itself together for the China Open only because it was the first time Shanghai hosting the event. Other than that, there has not been anything close to a full Chinese team in competition since the OG.

    As I said, many outside people may not understand the toll the OG took on Chinese athletes. Remember the quote: "if Liu Xiang does not win gold at the Beijing Olympics, all his past accomplishments amount to nothing"? Those "past accomplishments" included setting a world record to win gold at Athens Olympics. I don't think all Chinese officials are that idiotic. But you can get a sense of the tremendous pressure the Chinese athletes were under. They were liberated after the OG. You have to forgive them (especially those having the duty to win at the OG, like the badminton team) for not focusing on sports until they reset in the off season.
     
  8. george@chongwei

    george@chongwei Regular Member

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    hmm, what do u guys think of this article from nst.? the opinion by boopathy:p

    BWF must flex its muscles to ensure growth


    2008/12/21

    FOR a sport that is desperate to maintain its Olympic status, the Badminton World Federation (BWF) sure has a strange approach in marketing and promoting events. The Super Series Masters Finals, which ends in Kota Kinabalu today, is a case in point. Supposed to be the EVENT to bring the badminton season to a close, the inaugural championships were turned into a sideshow instead as a host of withdrawals, led by China, saw a diluted field competing in Kota Kinabalu.

    Even the total prize money of US$500,000 (RM1.74 million) -- the richest on the circuit -- failed to act as a lure and the BWF has admitted that it has to share part of the blame.

    BWF was late in securing a sponsor and this led to invitations being delayed, thus making it easier for China and South Korea to withdraw.

    The official reason both gave was that their players are already in centralised training camp for the start of the 2009 season and BWF, other than slapping a US$250 fine, is powerless to do anything.

    Can you imagine an international federation being so weak? Imagine if European champions Manchester United had decided not to play in the ongoing Fifa World Club Championship in Japan?

    The football world agrees that it is an irrelevant tournament but yet, United are competing for if they didn't, Fifa would have come down hard on them.

    This is what BWF lacks -- clout -- thus leaving it at the mercy of its affiliates who can pick and choose just about everything -- including deciding which player should win a particular tournament.

    This has happened before and will happen again, especially when the qualifying period for either the World Championships or Olympics is about to end.

    But the BWF will be powerless to act and really, given the lack of professionalism seen in the organising of the Super Series Masters Finals, this shouldn't come as a surprise.

    Having picked the year-end holiday season to hold the event, BWF has squeezed the competition into four days from the normal five and some players have had to play three matches a day with Malaysia's Wong Pei Tty one of the victims.

    She partnered Chin Eei Hui in the women's doubles and Lim Khim Wah in the mixed and after a long season, this is not the way to end the year and the gruelling Masters Finals schedule leaves her vulnerable to injuries.

    No doubt, it was Pei Tty's choice to play but this was a choice many others were not willing to take and this has resulted in the fans, the world over, being cheated of top quality action.

    The Masters Finals are being telecast live on satellite television and the absence of most of the world's top players mean not only are the fans left without the possibility of seeing a Lin Dan-Lee Chong Wei showdown but the sponsors who came to BWF's rescue must also be wondering whether they made the right move in extending their support.

    This can't go on, especially as certain nations are also fond of withdrawing their players from other Super Series tournaments and BWF has to flex its muscles if it wants to see badminton continue growing.

    Already, there is speculation that badminton could be one of those in danger of being dropped from the Olympic programme in 2016.

    While BWF officials are confident this won't happen, they can't take anything for granted as other sports, including squash, are lobbying hard for inclusion into the 2016 Olympics.

    It is a fact that at the International Olympic Committee level, what moves and shakes is influence and if BWF can't even get its affiliates to toe the line, how is it going to impress the 100-over IOC officials who decide which sport should be on the programme.

    BWF has promised it will tighten its rules and regulations next year but it must not be mere cosmetic changes for the Olympic future of a sport that is certainly more exciting than table tennis and even tennis, depends on its international federation being dynamic.
     
  9. RedShuttle

    RedShuttle Regular Member

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    This is pretty much the core of the problem. BWF must get its own act together first to gain credibility and respect. Clout and power will follow.
     
  10. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    Aren't we having too many Badminton events?

    .
    george@chongwei ... Thank you for the article.

    To me, BWF has been going for quantity, not quality.
    CHN, on the other hand, is going for quality, not quantity.

    It is now up to BWF to work on our 2010 tournament schedule, but not the 2009 schedule because it has already been released. Hope that no last moment changes will be affecting the 2009 schedule, otherwise confusion will set in. Below, is the 2009 schedule.

    12 Super Series events:
    1. Malaysia
    2. Korea
    3. All England
    4. Switzerland
    5. Singapore
    6. Indonesia
    7. China (1)
    8. Japan
    9. Denmark
    10. France
    11. Hong Kong
    12. China (2)
    13. Super Series Masters Finals

    6 GP Gold events:
    1. India
    2. Philippines
    3. Thailand
    4. Macau
    5. Taipei
    6. Netherlands

    8 GP events:
    1. Germany
    2. Canada
    3. USA
    4. New Zealand
    5. Vietnam
    6. Netherlands
    7. Russia
    8. Bitburger

    And not to forget that in 2009, there are also...
    World Championships
    Sudirman Cup
    International Series
    International Challenges
    Asian Continental Championships
    European Mixed Team Championships
    etc......

    So, talking about our 2009 schedule... I ask you "Aren't we having too many Badminton events?"
    .
     
    #50 chris-ccc, Dec 21, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2008
  11. eRa@에라

    eRa@에라 Regular Member

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    Check out the new ruling by BWF

    I guess now we can say BWF is taking some serious action over those who withdraw from the tournaments. I refer to the article from nst today. A fine of US$1,000 for the player... in part it does seems unfair for the player since they are not in total responsible for their withdrawal if it was the assoc.'s decision... but then again maybe it's the only way to control those associations from not sending their players to the tournament. What do you think? And a change of format in the Uber/Thomas cup in next 2010. I look forward for more... :D
     
    #51 eRa@에라, Dec 21, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2008
  12. RedShuttle

    RedShuttle Regular Member

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    Stronger enforcement is good. But what they enforce must be reasonable to start with.

    How does one register and withdraw from an event? If the penalty for withdrawal is too severe, it may discourage registration in the first place.

    It's funny that China was used in the example to deliberately finish 2nd and be forced to face a strong team. Give me a break :rolleyes:

    Don't they have better things to do, such as promoting the game and bringing up the level of play in Europe, Americas and Africa, than finding new ways to limit the Chinese team :confused:
     
  13. eRa@에라

    eRa@에라 Regular Member

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    Hmm...

    Hmm.... from my understanding, what they're trying to do is to make more countries able to participate in the badminton tournaments... and i didnt see it as ways to limit china players... it's just so happen china comes out with more players than other countries... but if we really want the sport to grow, let's just not limit it to one country with most athletes... if so, then badminton will never grow... and your hope to see those underlines countries to participate will surely remain a dream....but again, it's just my personal thought. :cool:
     
    #53 eRa@에라, Dec 22, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2008
  14. RedShuttle

    RedShuttle Regular Member

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    Dream or reality, that should be the main mission of BWF. So get on with it already!

    If the spots vacated by China are taken up by other badminton savvy countries, how does it let in more countries?

    If these spots are just given to countries not interested in badminton, whose players will likely exit in the first round with less than 10 points in two games. These players may not even live in the countries they represent, let alone promoting the game there.

    Countries have high numbers of elite players, e.g. doubles teams from INA, MAS, or KOR, should be rewarded with additional entries as well, not restricted more than the current quota.

    I think the current three in the top four rule should be modified to three in the top six or eight. With that, the BWF can and should come down hard on any overt manipulation of results. A team can still withdraw certain players from an event but whoever there must perform to the best of their abilities, no matter who the opponents are.

    Rather than putting on any new limit, I'd put in an obligation that teams with extra spots must contribute to a coaching pool used at the discretion of BWF to send help to countries that need help. That's an offer that no body should decline.
     
  15. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    2012 Olympic Games: 'One competitor per category per country'

    .
    eRa@에라 ... That's exactly what I prefer to see, that is for us to allow more countries be able to participate. I believe that this is a good way for Badminton to become a global sport.

    If the SSF are always found with players from just 5 nations, CHN, DEN, INA, MAS and KOR, then Badminton will remain popular only in these few countries. Badminton will stay like these sports, namely; Baseball, Softball, Cricket, Bowling, etc...

    By the way, it was good to see Hong Kong winning the Womens Singles at the 2008 SSF.

    In an earlier post(Post#20), I mentioned that a 'one competitor per category per country' rule might be a good idea. Judo will be doing just that for the coming 2012 Olympic Games (see attachment).
    .
     

    Attached Files:

  16. RedShuttle

    RedShuttle Regular Member

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    I would like to think badminton is a mainstream sport while Judo is more obscure. Badminton does not need to mimic Judo.

    All these quota scheming is for increasing the number of nations on the podium, not the nations in the OG. The current rule allows at most one country with 3 spots. Decreasing that to 2 will free up a maximum of 5 spots (3 is a more likely scenario, like the Beijing OG), to players most people do not know and will not hear again, including their own countrymen.

    Softball got kicked out of OG because it is just not popular. The US is virtually assured the gold medal does not help but it is really not the main cause.

    Europeans and Americans dominated badminton in the early part of history. It is not like any quota system brought Asians into dominance today.

    BWF should just promote the game better in the rest of world. All badminton savvy nations should help out to train players from the badminton-poor nations. Only when they have credible heros, the people in those countries would take more interest, not when their totally outclassed countrymen got ambarrased at the OG.

    Don't want to beat up on SS Masters any more (some good games indeed). But wouldn't it be better to hold this in Europe or North America? Look at where tennis holds its year-end Masters event.
     

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