Finals...

Discussion in 'All England 2004' started by Syaoran_Style, Mar 13, 2004.

  1. viver

    viver Regular Member

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    Thanks for replying. I have to take what you say since I have not watched the game. If Gade was able to wrong-foot Lin often it proves that he a better player. Read from another post that Lin went up 6-0 in the 2nd game which make me question what really happened. Did Lin put up a gear in the 2nd game or was it Gade who slowed down? On tournaments' technique, I not only rate what you mentioned but also physical fitness and mental attitude. You can't have a positive attitude for a tournament if you are not physically fit. But I really hope Gade could be in his 100% for the coming Olympics. As a badminton fan, though I am supporting China, I primarilly want a good spectacle, a match with good ingredients and to remember later.

    That's what I was referring to. If the Malaysian already did the trick earlier, the umpire should not have let go. The timing to penalize the Malaysians appears to me a bad decision, though it may be correct under the rules book. Had she warned the Malaysian players earlier this may not have happened and the umpire could control the game in a better fashion.

    Having said all that, we as amateur players also have to endure a lot of bad calls and worse umpiring. Still we have to carry on with the game as if nothing happened. It is surprising that the Malaysian pair was so affected by this "issue".
     
  2. Runner23

    Runner23 Regular Member

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    We can only hope that Peter will be able to maximise his training before spring tournaments and the Olympics. If so, he has a strong chance of winning. If not, same thing can happen again- he will run out of speed in the latter stages.

    I agree that it is perhaps bad timing to fault anyone at such a late point in a game. But perhaps it was only then the umpire thought the "not being ready" was getting out of hand.

    Both Peter and Lin are very quick at rushing short serves. Hence there were some receiver's faults because they went too early. But Lin is very quick to serve as well. It kind of looks like he "walks into his serve" if you get my point, whereas the rest of us walk to the place where we serve, hold, and then serve. I think that partly explains why Gade claimed he was not ready 6 times as you say. But 6 times is too much, 2-3 times in order to get used to Lin's slightly different serving approach is more acceptable.

    It IS part of the game, but not to be used too much. And Wan Wah did stand like he was perfectly ready most of the time. I know that he put up his hand on that disputed point, but he didn't most of the other times, and that's probably what counts.
     
  3. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

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    I agree with you and really sympathise with the Malaysian pair, esp Lee, who must now feel guilty and cheated of having the crown stolen from their hands. But I hate to say that the umpire is likely from the UK and she unwittingly portrayed how biased she was to penalise Lee and literally giving the match to the Danes. Anyway, the entire incident was recorded and shown live to the world and I hope both the Baofe and the IBF will take note and not allow such inconsistencies to perpetrate.

    As for Runner23, one can understand his remarks as he is a Dane himself and both Peter Gade and the doubles pair are his countrymen. No one should disregard the skills and resolve of Peter who made a magnificant comeback, but to say that, except for his fitness, he is more superior to Lin Dan is just being unfair to the latter. Remember Lin is now World No. 1, a distinction which he recently acquired by beating rounds and rounds of world class players and capturing a record number of international titles last year and the recent Swiss Open, apart from this AE! To say that Lin Dan is trying to emulate Peter is different from saying that players are always aiming for perfection, Lin and Peter included. I hope R23 could be more open-minded and more circumspect.
     
  4. Wizbit

    Wizbit Regular Member

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    Lee Wan Wah...reminds me of the classic fable, "the boy who cried wolf"...
     
  5. YINTH

    YINTH Regular Member

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    There was no broadcasting in China TV so I was anticipating the contribution from your avid fans in this forum.

    It was really disappointed for the whole Malaysian fans that Lee / Chong just gave up the game so tamely in the rubber set.

    A disputed call against Lee / Chong was a blow for them but as a veteran in badminton era for the past few years, they should be perpared for it and accept it as a part of the game. I remembered there were some dispute calls against the Mal pairs on previous occasions (Forgot what tournament was that) but they failed to learn from the lessons. These fellows are not young anymore and how many close opportunity they have to take the AE championship??? There are many rising stars coming up.

    See how many titles they have achieved since they paired?? You can ignore it.
    We all know that Chong is really bad temper and blamed Lee in the past and they did not communicate friendly by heart.

    L / C should know that they are not only fighting the pride for the themselves but indeed for the entire Malaysians.


    I hope the BAM and Yap Kim Hock should learn and focus on players psychology.
    Players who behave like Rexy / Ricky and Park Joo Bong and Kim Bong Soo will only become super players. We realized those players also confronted unfair calls against them but they still managed to calm down and concentrate the next.

    Hope L / C will become more mature in the coming Thomas cup.//
     
  6. viver

    viver Regular Member

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    Having a few games of Lin Dan and Peter Gade's past games (like him against Hendrawan in World Championships?) I don't think they even play similarly. I liked the way Lin played his previous game against Wong Choong Haan - there I say, he showed maturity against Wong, moving him around and patiently waiting for opportunities to attack and changing the pace of the game when suitable. Really intelligent player. My feeling from that game - I might be wrong though, is that he is a better player than Peter Gade.
     
  7. Justice

    Justice Regular Member

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    I can't agree more with CarlK that u r biased, R23!

    When Peter Gade claimed he was not ready for 6 times, then it was Lin Dan who was trying to rush the serves. When it comes to Lee who was not ready for 3 times, he was trying to cheat?? As I remember it vividly, he was looking down and just about to get a good footing, the next thing happened was the Dane "walks into his serve".

    There were biased line calls too against some players especially Roslin. So, Gade was given a number of free points.

    Eat your words, and my boots too. R23!!
     
  8. fhchiang

    fhchiang Regular Member

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    runner23..

    i think u're not familiar with the rules...


    AS LONG AS A PLAYER SHOW NO INTENTION TO RETURN THE SERVICE AND HELD HIS HAND UP...

    a reserve SHOULD BE ALLOWED!!

    look at the vidoe replay...

    LEE WAN WAH DIDN'T EVEN MOVE!!!! HIS RACQUET WASN'T EVEN UP....


    come on.. runner23... if you're a SO-CALLED "Professional"... u should have known better.............

    and more over...... i think Jane Hancock WAs TRYING TO COVER HER OWN MISTAKE BY SHOWING THE YELLOW Card...


    AND WHO wouldn't GET AFFECTED AT SUCH CRUCIAL TIME OF THE GAME!!!

    letting the opponent gain one point means letting your chances to win slip away......


    and... PETER DID ASK FOR MANY RESERVES WHEN HE PLAYED AGAISNT lindan...

    and he uses a DIRTY TRICK!! when he's losing.... he question the lines man call... when the video replay clearly show it's an out....... he did that for like 2 times.......


    so whose using dirty trick?
     
    #288 fhchiang, Mar 15, 2004
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2004
  9. rejang

    rejang Regular Member

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    I echo JUSTICE's sentiments on R23's comments. I have rarely seen such incredible biased rationalisation as those of R23. It is so unreal that it is not even funny.
    I believed the Danes pair won fair and square in their part- they played well and maintained their composure. The silly stunt by the umpire was uncalled for but it should not diminshed Lungaard/Erickson's victory.
     
  10. wilfredlgf

    wilfredlgf Regular Member

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    There is no point in this discussion about Denmark, or rather I say, Europe vs Asia in this All England game, as far as I've read the posts about this matter.

    We can see that the fellow supporters of the Danes will say whatever they want to defend the credibility of that title because his or her own countrymen or women won it, regardless of how strong the case is against them.

    Same with the Malaysian or largely the Asian supporters of bias in the umpiring of the matches. They will surely dispute that point in which broke the rhythm of the game and eventually brought about a turn in fortunes. Surely, they feel as cheated as Choong / Lee of this.

    We will not find any solution to this even if we talk until the cows come home because the topic is way too subjective:

    1. Did the umpire make wrong call?
    2. Was the umpiring of the tournament somewhat biased?
    3. Did Wan Wah really cheat?
    4. Did Peter did the same?

    The thing is, the trophy had been handed out, the winner announced. There will surely be some repercussions, bitterness in the matter but what's the use?

    Runner32 will always defend Peter and Lund/Erikssen, regardless of what we say here because he is a Danish badminton fan, and his team won the MD.

    No point, friends. But at least the whole world saw what happened. There are millions of judges out there on who what happened. But the decision is final - MD is won by Lund/Erikssen. Choong / Lee lost. That's it. No more.

    As for Peter being superior to Lin Dan, well... let's watch and see if it's true. If it's not, let's just say Runner32 will have to bear with his remarks made here on BF for as long as people remember it.
     
  11. rejang

    rejang Regular Member

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    Well said, wilfredlgf.
     
  12. Mag

    Mag Moderator

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    I was away for the weekend, so I missed all the excitement here!

    But I was very pleased to see that my favorite Jens Erikssen finally won an AE title. He's been in one final (in MX 2001) before, and two or three semis, so it's not by accident that he won this year -- regardless of any umpire decisions. I didn't see what happened, but regardless, this Malaysian pair is (or should be) experienced enough to not let something like that disturb them. Maybe their concentration was broken, I seriously doubt that caused them to lose the third game by 12 points. To me it looks like they lost the match long before that incident, by not changing tactics when the Danes started to figure out how to play them. Rather than relying on speed, being able to adopt to their opponents IS one of the biggest strengths of this Danish pair.


    Regarding Gade vs Lin Dan: all I can say is that Lin Dan is the most complete player out there at the moment -- and he maybe the most complete player for many years. Gade may have an edge over Lin in certain aspects of the game, such as technique perhaps, but he's falling short in others. Gade is (today) not a complete player in the sense that Lin Dan is. The best man won this time. That is, of course, not to say that Gade can't beat Lin Dan -- of course he can (and will if he keeps this up), but probably not regularly. But a big thumbs up to Gade for making it to the final. He really didn't have an easy route there, and to me this finally proves that he's back.
     
  13. Runner23

    Runner23 Regular Member

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    I did not say that what Peter did is ok. He, too, could have been faulted annd it would have been fair. I think he was faulted for going too soon when being served to, at least he was in the semifinal.

    Regarding knowledge of the rules:
    Wan Wah only held up his hand on that one disputed, he didn't on several others. It's still accepted not to hold up your hand, as long as you make no attempt to get the shuttle back. Stand still in other words. But it is not something that you're allowed to do on every serve.

    And yes, Peter is still lacking in the physical department of the game, but hopefully as he can train more he will remedy that.

    I am not a very big fan of Lundgaard/Eriksen, even though I'm Danish.
    But I would have been furious if someone I served too was never ready, and the umpire didn't do anything about it.
     
  14. sunzhi

    sunzhi Regular Member

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    I believe Peter ws genuinely nt ready despite the excessive no.s of let.. its Lin Dan who ws penalised for moving before the serve bt in the replay, its more of a bad call.. its great seeing Peter making a come back and i sincerey believe he is capable of more.. he is one of the best player, both in term of skill and attitude before his injury.. evn nw, its always entertaining watching him n i must say, he is a real gentleman on n off court...

    did WW ask for re-serve 'every single time' as claimed, Runner23??? i m no fan of the m'sian pair, bt whn awarding a let, i think the umpire shd judge on tht one particular serve per se, if the receiver indicates he isnt ready (whthr by holding up his hand or nt moving), thn, it SHD be allowed... i disagree because of previous antics of 'purposely' delaying shd be 'brought forward' to and penalise subsequent genuine nt readiness.. the way i see it (i maybe wrong), WW ws definitely nt ready (or at least look genuinely so)... the call ws bad, bt losing in tht manner hv only thmselves to blame... the bad call maybe a factor, bt shdnt be the entire scape goat of losing... look at the bright side, at least they hv done wht ws last did 20 odd yrs ago by reaching an AE final, albeit heart breaking of nt tking home the crown..

    i agree wif wilfredlgf, its time to forgiv n forget...
     
  15. Mag

    Mag Moderator

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    Hey, fhchiang, calm down a bit please. Release that CAPS LOCK key and take a deep breath if you want anybody to listen to what you actually have to say. I sympathise with your disappointment, but no matter how agitated you feel: that tone of voice doesn't belong here. I'm only going to say this once.

    ----

    Now, having just said that, it's my turn to pour some fuel on the fire... :p

    Having seen a LOT of matches with Jens Erikssen, I'd say that chances are pretty high that he knew exactly what he was doing. He's the undisputed #1 of "grey area tactics", and he always deploys them at a crucial point of the game. When Jens is involved, these things just tend to happen. My guess is that earlier on, Jens got a bit annoyed with Lee getting ready to receive too slowly, and he saw (or made sure) that the umpire also noticed it, and then Jens decided to take his chances at a crucial point later in the game. I think that is how his mind works.

    Regardless of what one thinks about these so-called dirty tricks (some would call it psychological tactics), they're being used all the time, by everybody. Candra/Sigit were the champions of serving before opponents were ready (and Candra's still doing it), before them it was Ricky/Rexy (well Ricky at least), and so on.
     
  16. rejang

    rejang Regular Member

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    On Runner23's last point:
    " I am not a very big fan of Lundgaard/Eriksen, even though I'm Danish. But I would have been furious if someone I served too was never ready, and the umpire didn't do anything about it.",

    I quote Raphael Sachetat’s article “Super Dan beat Super Dane” today in worldbadminton.net:
    “…Martin Lundgaard could understand his opponent’s feelings “He wasn’t ready. I would get just as angry as he did. I can understand his frustrations.”"
     
  17. sunzhi

    sunzhi Regular Member

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    wow.. tks for the update on Jens Erikssen, mag.. i hv seen him playing live twice in spore open.. maybe you are right, if u evr gt the chance of watching the match, u b the judge whthr wht WW did ws excessive..
     
  18. Runner23

    Runner23 Regular Member

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    Indeed, why can't some members here present their arguments in a more proper and orderly fashion. I may be the main opponent of the Malaysian fans here, but I am still not thrash-talking them. Unfortunately, it does not seem to be that way the other way around.

    Jens Eriksen is renowned, really infamous, in the Danish elite division for playing on every single aspect, including the greyed out areas of the game. He is the worst when it comes to that. Martin just tends to go along, but does not actively seek these things.
    Jens might have noticed the umpire did not appreciate Wan Wah continuously not being ready to receive and tried to play on it. But you're still not allowed to not be ready so often.

    Sunzhi, I don't think I said it happened every time on the serve, but too often.
    Things like that are acceptable 2-3 times, but that's about it.


    The case that Mag brings up with serving quickly is a similar example of using tactics like that in a reverse situation. It works very well to serve quickly, you can serve while you are still looking down (most players look a little downwards right before serving) and when being served to so suddenly, you're not really ready, but you still make a reaction towards the shuttle, and it often becomes a poor return.
    I serve that way myself, I'm not really looking at the opponent or the net in the instant where I serve, but more downwards. And sometimes I win free points on that because the receiver is not expexting me to serve so soon, but he still goes for it.
     
  19. Justice

    Justice Regular Member

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    Listen to this guys,

    03-15-2004 07:44 PM, R23 was saying: “….But it is not something that you're allowed to do on every serve…”

    Then at 08:33 PM, R23 rapped again: “I don't think I said it happened every time on the serve, but too often.”

    R23, I don’t believe u r a professional badminton player. U must be a lawyer or a politician….:eek:
     
  20. Mag

    Mag Moderator

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    Oh, it really doesn't matter what I think. I am sure that, in one way or another, Jens Eriksen was being dodgy. What matters is that the Malaysians lost it completely in the 3rd game. Indeed they tend to lose big matches like this one. There is a problem with concentration or consistency and they need to resolve that before Athens... :p
     

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