Footwork:- Chasse step

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by Udbhav, Dec 5, 2019.

  1. Udbhav

    Udbhav Regular Member

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    While doing the chasse steps should both my feets stay up in the air for a fraction of a second or one feet should always be on the ground(ie. One feet should always trail the other.)
     
  2. Ballschubser

    Ballschubser Regular Member

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    Some thoughts.

    1. I think you over-analyse this here, you will most likely do the correct chasse steps without thinking about it.

    2. A rule of thumb: if both feets are in the air, you lose contact to the ground and therefor you lose control of your movement. Therefor you should try to minimize the time you lose control.

    3. One foot (the one opposite of the direction your are moving) will be used to push you in the desired direction. Therefor you could just move in the desired direction by jumping with this foot (this is indeed used in badminton to quickly cover larger distances), but it cost you control (both feet are in the air over a longer period of time) and eventually stability. When using the chasse step, the other foot will stablize your body and movement while you drag your pushing foot into position to push off for the next step or for a lunge. There might be a fraction of a second, where you will have both feet not touching the ground, but I think this depends more on the movement speed than technique.
     
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  3. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Footwork is hard, arguably even harder even than getting racket work right. I don't think people tend to do just do things right without thinking about it, unless they already learnt it right and then they had to think about it, particularly if they think.
     
  4. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    I understand exactly what you are saying. (infact I have one asked the same question with similar words, to people some years ago! It's quite a rare question!)

    This is a very good question..It's the former. "both my feets stay up in the air " (in the middle of the movement). And not the latter so not one foot always on the ground

    I remember years ago I was practising chasses in a group coaching environment, and when I did it as one foot always on the ground, I was told that was wrong, and I was shown doing chasses where one foot moves back a bit, then both feet are off the ground, then one foot lands then the other. It's far more "dynamic" you move further, and the group coaching guy said it uses the core and that that's the right way.

    Infact, now I really understand things better.. Remember a bit earlier you asked if legs should be straight.. The answer as I mentioned is not straight, and I was wondering at the time how one would chasse with straight legs.. And infact, if you chasse wrongly, by always keeping one foot on the ground, then your legs would be straight or almost straight!! So it's kind of doubly wrong.. I used to do that years ago!! So you've enlightened me a bit more about how I used to do it wrong years ago! I used to get told I wasn't bending my legs.. I couldn't find a video of anybody doing that wrong chasse.. partly 'cos watching the beginners video somebody posted, a lot of the time when beginners try to go back, then they almost always run back regardless. (which is feet crossing, rather than chasseing). Since changing years ago, to having both feet off the ground, so chasseing in that more dynamici way, then my knees have been bent more, which is correct.

    Watch this video from jimmy linn.. from 21 seconds to 25 seconds



    the shuffle back.. (from terminology perspective I know that as a chasse.. though he is calling it a shuffle)

    So it starts with both feet on the ground

    [​IMG]
    .

    The knees bend, as quite a dynamic movement is going to be done (it won't be one foot always on the ground!)

    [​IMG]



    As the non-racket foot / front foot comes in and gets near the back foot , then the back foot comes off the floor, and both feet are off the floor.. notice also it is low to the ground.. so not wasting movement going upwards. t's Gliding across the floor.

    [​IMG]

    Now see the non-racket foot /front foot land. That's the foot that moved first, lands first.

    [​IMG]

    And then the racket foot lands, that's the last bit

    [​IMG]

    I can't comment much on the point of where he chasses from, and where he chasses to, and racket position, and torso positon.. He's doing a singles movement.. But purely for the question you asked about chasses. That's the movement..

    Your question also indicates to me why you'd have had your legs straight! Do it right with both feet coming off the floor and gliding and your legs will perhaps naturally not be straight. But if you do it wrong, one foot always on the floor, then it's slow and maybe your legs will also naturally be straight. Like, as mentioned, when an old person moves on a zimmoframe, one foot on the floor, legs straight, that'd be wrong.

    So, if you were to observe feet coming on and off the floor, the front foot comes off the floor, (not high off the floor.. no foot comes high off the floor),, (and the front foot comes in towards the back foot but not meeting it), then the back foot comes off the floor.. (now both feet are in the air, low on the ground, and you are gliding). Then the front foot lands, then the back foot lands.

    Onto where I am not as sure.. , i'm very much a layman on this, even moreso than usual, but I think maybe your torso has to be somehow tilted fowards a bit.. what you don't want to happen is your weight going backwards, because then your balance ends up tilted back, and you lose power. Also that back foot landing(the last part), should also stop you from going further back. So your posture should be stable when you land. There shouldn't be some unplanned for extra step occurring due to the momentum going back. Also, and again i'm not sure re this, but maybe the knees needn't and perhaps shouldn't be as bent after the movement. Some may though.. It's something to consider - how bent should the knees be after the movement compared to during. I'm not sure.
     
    #4 ralphz, Dec 10, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
  5. Udbhav

    Udbhav Regular Member

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  6. Udbhav

    Udbhav Regular Member

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    I took the risk and somehow managed to make my friend record my footwork , please have a look at it and mention the corrections.

    Also am I doing the chasse correctly?
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/ei74KgTzbpMfgG1r7

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/c6KiywLnjicSk4o57

    #5
     
  7. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Good to have some video.

    It’s easier to analyse if you do a few repetitive movements in a row. Sometimes people perform a single action better if they know the video is recording. :)

    I see you are going the the forehand rear court corner. Some obvious things.

    A) when you start, your feet do not split step on the ground at the same time - you lose a little bit of time.

    B) try to have a lower centre of gravity during the chasse steps.

    C) you need to take an extra chasse step to the forehand corner. Two steps is not enough.

    D) it looks like you have other issues with your overhead action but we would need a few more continuous shots to diagnose it more clearly.

    good luck with your practice.
     
  8. Udbhav

    Udbhav Regular Member

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    Correct me if I am wrong:-

    A) In order to move in a particular direction if we know direction of movement then we land with opposite feet (to direction of movement) first.

    B)In order to have lower centre of gravity do I need to squat even lower?

    C)Is it Ok if I take 3 steps to forehand corner or do I need to stretch my legs further so I can reach the corner in 2 chasse steps. Also can I add a jump after 2 chasse steps to reach the forehand corner?

    D)Please specify the problems you are talking about so that they can be corrected.


    Also which is more preferable / faster back running or chasse steps?
     
  9. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    A) split step with both feet landing at the same time on the floor.

    B) yes.

    C) i) two chasse plus one extra equals three steps. 2+1=3
    ii) depends on the shuttle flight that you are receiving. Your two chasse plus jump is a different movement pattern for a different game situation.

    D) not enough video to make a diagnosis
     
  10. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Nothing stands out to me as wrong. Though i'm no expert.

    Worth bearing in mind that if the shuttle is on a fairly or somewhat diagonal path to the side of you then it's different, The chasse is then smaller, more like a shuffle

    see this gyn video 17sec in he starts


    so that chasse is more like a shuffle, prior to the jump..

    (though i've sometimes learnt it as less sideways on).

    but the chasse part of that, (probably better termed shuffle), is easy to learn.
     
  11. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    are you referring to a scissor kick, normally done in the round the head side.

    like from 0:08-0:11 (8 seconds to 11 seconds).

    (he calls it a scissor jump, but I normally hear it referred to as a scissor kick or scissors)



    not sure about the term 'chasse step'. some speak of running steps. But re chasses vs running/feet crossing

    chasses are used for smaller movements and are probably preferable when the distance is sufficiently short. Similarly with a shuffle..(a shuffle might technically be a type of chasse.. but I guess it's beneficial to distinguish them)..

    if it's a small movement eg only one chasse required, then do that..

    pivot and chasse is common.

    For a certain distance, chasses are considered too slow and running steps , feet crossing over, would get you further.

    I'm no expert but i'd guess that 3 chasses might be wrong and maybe there you'd always be better off with running steps, though i'm not sure.
     
    #11 ralphz, Dec 13, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  12. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    They stay up for a fraction of a second. This will allow you to move further with the movement.
     
  13. Udbhav

    Udbhav Regular Member

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    I have some new doubts now:-
    What do you mean by pivot?
    What is the difference between a chasse and shuffle?
    And what do you mean by feet crossing over?

    Does feet crossing mean this:-
    At 24 secs in the video her feet cross each other while she moves to forehand back court.
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/T5xjde2H4vb9yJxW7

    Also in above video is the player doing chasse or shuffle steps to move towards forehand back court corner?

    Please provide some videos they would be really helpful.
     
  14. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Well often one has their racket foot a bit forward in a ready position.. some may have their racket foot a bit back when defending.. but the racket foot isn't way back.

    When returning serve, the racket foot is way back. You are said to be already turned , turned 'to the side'. You are more ready to go back.

    The movement to move from a ready position, where the racket foot isn't way back, to that sideways on racket foot back position, is called a pivot.

    When returning serve you don't need to pivot because you are already turned.

    But if you'd lifted it then you're ready they may clear it they may drop it they may smash it.. And if they clear it then you'd pivot prior to any further movement back.

    How far the foot goes back and how much to the side you should be, down to where it's ok for your front foot to point, is something you may or may not, encounter slight differences on


    What I can say for sure is a chasse is when the feet don't cross. The problem is that is rather general. Some may add that it's a bit like one foot chasing the other one. What you did in your video is a chasse.

    As for what a shuffle is

    I pointed you in this thread to a video by jimmy lin, titled "Badminton Footwork by Jimmy Lin, Part 1G: Block Jump". That video is 51 seconds long. As mentioned, his first 17 seconds is always his confusing intro that I warned about and suggested skipping. So that lesves 34 seconds of video to watch there. And he uses the word "shuffle" there while doing them prior to his jump. It's pretty clear what a shuffle is from that. It's a lot easier than a chasse. And you can do a chasse..

    It may be that shuffle is a subset of chasse.. so maybe chasse is a bit general. But shuffle is clear at least there.

    Re what is happening in that video, others can answer much better than me. . Also, I don't tend to play singles much, and singles really has all the footwork.

    But, when feet cross it's definitely not a chasse. That is for sure. Chasse is like one foot 'chases' the other but they don't cross.

    If on youtube you were to look up chasse in the context of ballet you'd also see chasses with some explanations. https://www(dot)youtube.com(slash)watch?v=kk8K1DYeXIU and maybe fencing too uses some form of chasse.

    But you are doing it very well

    I only know chasses from badminton, and the way I learnt it it's better for feet not to touch and like you are doing it, feet not touching. You can chasse.

    You could also practise doing them from the T, to the net so as to do a delicate net shot.

    One thing that is definitely feet crossing and would be categorised as cross-over footwork is in the picture here.

    https://www.badmintonbible.com/footwork/net/cross-over

    That guy used to contribute here, as Gollum, and is considered to have some good stuff.

    Beyond that, as far as feet crossing is concerned, I'm not necessarily much clearer than you on what people are talking about when they use some of these terms..

    Look at AG Rogers post.. in this thread, Steps and Crossovers July 2008
    https://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/index.php?threads/steps-and-crossovers.58141/

    His entire post.

    But also, he says

    "
    Running step is pretty obvious, in that it's how we normally move (i.e. going straight forwards or backwards). While efficient in its use of energy it doesn't really allow you to get sideways on without further corrective steps at the point of contact hence losing a lot of its efficiency.

    Crossover step is the next type (which can be further broken down into crossover in front of standing leg and crossover behind standing leg). Again this tends to be in a lateral direction, thus forcing you to get sideways on making body rotation far easier and more natural at point of contact.
    "

    AGRogers is pretty clear in so far as that he doesn't generalise one of those two terms, or equate them. And in how he defines running steps.

    There are better people than me to ask about crossover steps.. I might not even use them when I play doubles, and I don't play singles.

    I'd add that running steps in badminton, I think you are meant to still turn the hips. .

    There are some that generalise and refer to forward and backwards running steps as cross over steps, because the feet are crossing over. But maintain that running is just for forward and backward. So for example, see Gollum's post in that thread.

    So for example when there was a reference to "3 step cross-over" in mason's thread, they were referring to 3 running steps back

    what is in this video in post #1 from 1:48-1:50 you get a shuffle and three running steps back https://www.badmintoncentral.com/fo...pe-of-footwork-involving-running-back.183442/

    i've seen a simpler shuffle, and I notice his running steps are a bit hips facing the net.. but that aside. there are a couple of running steps there that some may call cross-over steps, because they generalise the term.


    Looking at the "Steps and Crossovers" thread, July 2008, (mentioned and linked to earlier in this post) Blundey makes a good point here, he says "chasses can be utilized more than going side to side, they can be used in any manner of direction."

    And I agree with Blundey when he completely distinguishes running steps and cross-over steps,and like AGRogers, he doesn't generalise or equate them. I think it's much clearer that way too.

    But sometimes, whoever is using the term, you have to see what they mean..
     
    #14 ralphz, Dec 14, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2019

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