question about the snapping the wrist method (old fashioned?)

[ralphz]

looking at this video, it shows a guy using the snapping the wrist method



Is it associated with when somebody is using proper forehand grip, racket in line with knuckles, / racket in that part of the hand between fingers and palm, but the shuttle is contacted a bit close to the body, and they are doing ulnar deviation so the racket doesn't point diagonally

And is that an old fashioned method not done anymore? like nowadays if contacting there would they have the racket not so upright when that close to the body and of course no snapping the wrist? obviously if contact were wide of the body, the racket could easily be upright, no ulnar deviation, no snapping the wrist.
.

 

[BalajiSethuraman]

looking at this video, it shows a guy using the snapping the wrist method



Is it associated with when somebody is using proper forehand grip, racket in line with knuckles, / racket in that part of the hand between fingers and palm, but the shuttle is contacted a bit close to the body, and they are doing ulnar deviation so the racket doesn't point diagonally

And is that an old fashioned method not done anymore? like nowadays if contacting there would they have the racket not so upright when that close to the body and of course no snapping the wrist? obviously if contact were wide of the body, the racket could easily be upright, no ulnar deviation, no snapping the wrist.
.

Snapping the wrist will create injuries over a period of time in my humble opinion.. for a proper one, whats said on that video is all right except snapping the write, instead lock the write and do a forearm pronation.


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[ralphz]

...

You probably don't know the technique and have probably never done it and never been shown it. And you're avoiding the question, which is fine 'cos you're not familiar with the technique. Show me one pro player that has been injured by the technique(i'm guessing some pro players have at least done it in the past). Maybe you are confusing the snapping the wrist method, with bending the wrist to perpendicular. I've mentioned the snapping the wrist technique to a few coaches none ever said to me that it'd risk injury, and i've even been told i'm doing it well(and that doesn't mean I don't know and use other techniques too). So I really don't think you have any basis for saying it will cause me injury. Why don't you tell that guy doing it that he will injure himself?

You didn't answer the question, but the question is what it is.

 

[BalajiSethuraman]

You probably don't know the technique and have probably never done it and never been shown it. And you're avoiding the question, which is fine 'cos you're not familiar with the technique. Show me one pro player that has been injured by the technique(i'm guessing some pro players have at least done it in the past). Maybe you are confusing the snapping the wrist method, with bending the wrist to perpendicular. I've mentioned the snapping the wrist technique to a few coaches none ever said to me that it'd risk injury, and i've even been told i'm doing it well(and that doesn't mean I don't know and use other techniques too). So I really don't think you have any basis for saying it will cause me injury. Why don't you tell that guy doing it that he will injure himself?

You didn't answer the question, but the question is what it is.

I just said with a quote as in my humble opinion. Well I don’t have to prove anything here or neither prove to u. If ur in search of it, then check few YouTube video of professional coaches.

This is a forum and u have asked an open question so either u take it as u like or chose to ignore. Just don’t pound on me for those. Ignore it if u don’t like it!!! But please do check the facts once..

Did a quick google. Found many videos of what I was trying to say and the below video is pretty much self explanatory.



Another one exactly what I was pointing as not to snap the wrist..



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[ralphz]

I just said with a quote as in my humble opinion. Well I don’t have to prove anything here or neither prove to u. If ur in search of it, then check few YouTube video of professional coaches.

I'm not "pounding" on you, i'm just telling you that there's no basis to what you are saying 'cos by your logic that guy is going to injure himself.

I also suggested even in my title that it's not a standard method these days, so by telling me to check what is out there on youtube, (yes from pro coaches), I don't think you understand what I asked or what I said. I said it's not common and it was used more in the past. So you won't find much out there on youtube, unless perhaps it's an older coach (yes, pro coach, but older), like in that video, and most wouldn't teach it 'cos they modernize, but if you asked them they'll tell you.

I suggest you speak to some pro coaches, particularly older ones, (like the guy in that video), and you will find out that the snapping the wrist technique exists. But as you may notice in my title, it's not used so much nowadays afaik. And my question makes that clear.

 

[speCulatius]

I don't think I've ever seen a snapping of the wrist by a pro player to get power.

I've seen it by (high level) players as a passive movement at the beginning of the follow through when relaxing the arm.

I would never teach it, because when snapping the wrist (that's not very accurate, by the way, it just doesn't matter, because it holds true for all wrist flexion and extension), the weight of the racket will pull that joint in a direction, (almost) all the force will be absorbed directly by those joints (the wrist is more than one joint), maybe even opening it with each stroke. I am not a doctor and I cannot tell you any details on how and when it can lead to injuries, but I do know one thing.

That's not what a joint is built for.

The beauty of (forearm) pronation is, that the force is absorbed by stretching muscles and tendons. They are built to be stretched.

A possible explanation of why you see it less these days (in the follow through) compared to a long time ago: lighter rackets
Lighter rackets lead to less force (at the same speed), so it's less likely that the wrist is moved passively. But which probably contributes to it a lot more is the secondary effect of a faster game. The technique had changed to more compact movements with a shorter follow through. The racket arm is often kept from falling down to be ready for the next shot. Therefore, it's not as relaxed leading to less passive movement.

 

[DarkHiatus]

looking at this video, it shows a guy using the snapping the wrist method



Is it associated with when somebody is using proper forehand grip, racket in line with knuckles, / racket in that part of the hand between fingers and palm, but the shuttle is contacted a bit close to the body, and they are doing ulnar deviation so the racket doesn't point diagonally

And is that an old fashioned method not done anymore? like nowadays if contacting there would they have the racket not so upright when that close to the body and of course no snapping the wrist? obviously if contact were wide of the body, the racket could easily be upright, no ulnar deviation, no snapping the wrist.
.

"Wrist snap" is normally used to describe the wrist flexion movement. What your video is showing is not a 'wrist snap' according to the typical definition, but more of an exaggerated pronation movement towards getting the hand fully pronated by focusing on the hand/wrist pronating enough that the racquet face points outwards after contact. There may be a little flexion involved, but the focus of the movement is to get the full pronation on his example, rather than to use the full range of wrist flexion to produce power.

This is commonly referred to as 'focusing the power' or even grip tightening, but I can easily see why wrist snap has been used to describe it...they can look incredibly similar to the untrained eye, and even to a good coach, it might not be worth mincing the words for specificity if you can just demonstrate it like your video example does.*

There are obvious benefits to focusing power correctly. And there are clear disadvantages when using a full wrist flexion movement (at the very least, it can cause your arm to be too tense by trying to get full wrist extension).

*At the end of the day, a coach is trying to get the shape of a stroke and the rhythm/movement of the stroke to look right. You can either try and build it ground up by mechanical descriptions as you are prone to do, or you can go the other way and try to describe the final shape. The 'wrist snap' is more of the latter, when you want to get a student to get the idea that there is a focused period of power, after which the follow through begins with the wrist is a reasonably flexed (goose neck) position. The idea is that the stroke should NOT be a diffused elongated swipe through the shuttle. Most coaches know both methods, but students do not (otherwise they wouldn't be a student!), therefore the lessons would be tailored to each student, assuming the coach is versatile enough to customise their teaching methods.

 

[BalajiSethuraman]

I'm not "pounding" on you, i'm just telling you that there's no basis to what you are saying 'cos by your logic that guy is going to injure himself.

I also suggested even in my title that it's not a standard method these days, so by telling me to check what is out there on youtube, (yes from pro coaches), I don't think you understand what I asked or what I said. I said it's not common and it was used more in the past. So you won't find much out there on youtube, unless perhaps it's an older coach (yes, pro coach, but older), like in that video, and most wouldn't teach it 'cos they modernize, but if you asked them they'll tell you.

I suggest you speak to some pro coaches, particularly older ones, (like the guy in that video), and you will find out that the snapping the wrist technique exists. But as you may notice in my title, it's not used so much nowadays afaik. And my question makes that clear.

Well u didn’t read between the lines of my answer.. why did the existence of it is not available now? Why did it got changed?? Well very curious to know why did pro coaches with such good technique make vanish and modernise snapping method?? May be is it too good for all players? The likes of pro players learn from their childhood so it got vanished way before they started to learn or perhaps the coaches don’t want the players to learn those ways.

Finding a good coach is really tough, cos first we ourself need to know what the coach says is correct or wrong! Just because the coach is old we can’t say they have the wisdom of badminton..

Anyways I will stop here!! I don’t have to argue with u or make u understand.


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[ralphz]

I've seen it by (high level) players as a passive movement at the beginning of the follow through when relaxing the arm.

would you agree that's what he's doing in that video?

I agree it's not to get power. Have seen any pro players of the past doing it (as a passive movement, of course not to get power).

A possible explanation of why you see it less these days (in the follow through) compared to a long time ago: lighter rackets
Lighter rackets lead to less force (at the same speed), so it's less likely that the wrist is moved passively. But which probably contributes to it a lot more is the secondary effect of a faster game. The technique had changed to more compact movements with a shorter follow through. The racket arm is often kept from falling down to be ready for the next shot. Therefore, it's not as relaxed leading to less passive movement.

I agree

By the way, there isn't much flexion going on.. There is forearm pronation going on though is not huge on the forearm pronation.. Would you agree that he's doing a lot of ulnar deviation? hence the racket being straight up and the restricted forearm pronation?

I think it's just a natural thing that happens if one does forearm pronation while having and maintaining ulnar deviation

 

[ralphz]

"Wrist snap" is normally used to describe the wrist flexion movement. What your video is showing is not a 'wrist snap' according to the typical definition, but more of an exaggerated pronation movement towards getting the hand fully pronated by focusing on the hand/wrist pronating enough that the racquet face points outwards after contact. There may be a little flexion involved, but the focus of the movement is to get the full pronation on his example, rather than to use the full range of wrist flexion to produce power.

I agree there's only a little flexion..

I guess "snap the wrist" is a funny thing to call it 'cos the term does suggest a lot of flexion and there isn't in that movement. But for lack of a better term and with them using that term in that video, i'll use that term. and we know what we mean..

Would you agree that what is happening there is he's doing a lot of ulnar deviation (hence the shaft of the racket is pointing straight up despite it being that close(in the horizontal axis, to his body). And when doing a lot of ulnar deviation then you get that "snapping of the wrist" happening with the forearm pronation?

note- When I do that technique my racket doesn't point out and my wrist doesn't flex as much. i've been told I do it well. I know that when I do it i'm doing ulnar deviation throughout and it keeps the shaft straight up (his shaft seems to be up too).. Maybe he's doing a bit less ulnar deviation than me so his racket went out.. unfortunately the video of that guy doesn't show the racket face at the top of the swing or even the whole shaft.

 

[speCulatius]

By the way, there isn't much flexion going on..

What the coach shows when telling to snap your wrist, is mostly palmar flexion. All the other parts of the video do not matter for your question.

would you agree that's what he's doing in that video?

I do not know. There's no shuttle in the video. Again: I wouldn't teach it. I might not mind it happening in some cases, but I would never teach it.

Would you agree that he's doing a lot of ulnar deviation?

I didn't pay attention to that, but if the racket and arm are both straight up, it's either a "yes" or he's changing his grip. Doesn't relate to the question of what he does when telling to snap the wrist.

 

[Cheung]

@ralphz

I didn’t understand your first question in the original post.

“Have professionals used it in the past”? The answer is yes. Around the early 1980’s and beforehand.

Do people still use it? Mostly the lower level social players.

 

[ralphz]

What the coach shows when telling to snap your wrist, is mostly palmar flexion.

(I added {...} to the quote for clarity)

if the racket and arm are both straight up, it's either a "yes"{he's doing ulnar deviation} or he's changing his grip. Doesn't relate to the question of what he does when telling to snap the wrist.

We can see where his arm is.. it's up and quite close to him in the horizontal axis. i.e. a narrow contact as opposed to a wide contact.

He wouldn't be changing grip during the motion.. And I see his racket end up in a position suggesting/confirming forehand grip as we see in the image below

So I guess maybe we agree he's doing ulnar deviation ..?

Looking here below, his racket shaft looks to be straight or maybe pointing out a little, not an inwards to outwards motion that it would when contact is that narrow and and when no ulnar deviation.

So I think that with that kind of technique, ulnar deviation is part of it and that's what causes that effect with the wrist that happens when doing the forearm pronation while doing ulnar deviation.

 

[ralphz]

@ralphz

“Have professionals used it in the past”? The answer is yes. Around the early 1980’s and beforehand.

Do people still use it? Mostly the lower level social players.

Can you name me any pro players of that era that would do it?

Unfortunately there aren't many uploads of old matches from the 1980s.. but i'll take a look.

 

[Cheung]

Kirsten Larsen I think
And maybe Li Lingwei

 

[speCulatius]

He wouldn't be changing grip during the motion..

He is... it's both of the possibilities I mentioned. He holds the racket so low that it moves quite a lot when he tightens the grip. Looking at two points and see that it's the same at both points doesn't mean that nothing is happening in between.

He also sais to flip the wrist when hitting. He wants it for power and I don't think that's a good idea.

So I think that with that kind of technique, ulnar deviation is part of it and that's what causes that effect with the wrist that happens when doing the forearm pronation while doing ulnar deviation.

Feel free to think that, I think that's his interpretation of reaching up to the shuttle, which is a natural way, but will not give you the same power as a slightly bent elbow and a neutral wrist will give you. Reaching up like that can create steeper angles... but it's a trade off. The focus is getting the shuttle early more than creating maximum power. Luckily there's a lot in between those extremes.

 

[ralphz]

He holds the racket so low that it moves quite a lot when he tightens the grip.

Do you mean his racket turns in his hand and isn't maintaining a forehand grip?

If it turned then I guess that would be a change of grip.. But i'd have thought that'd be hard to control, and then more like losing grip if the racket turned in his hand? I can't really tell if that is happening..

It's interesting what you say about holding the racket low.. I've recently been experimenting with holding the racket a bit lower than I was, when at the back, and I guess that would need the thumb and forefinger to hold a bit more than it would when higher up, so as to keep the racket from turning in the hand.

He also sais to flip the wrist when hitting. He wants it for power and I don't think that's a good idea.

He says to snap the wrist(rather than flip). I don't know if he wants it for power.. if so, I agree with you it's not really going to add much power.

Re my remarks on him possibly doing ulnar deviation, you write "Feel free to think that, I think that's his interpretation of reaching up to the shuttle, "

He didn't say that's what he's doing.

is a natural way, but will not give you the same power as a slightly bent elbow and a neutral wrist will give you.

I agree. Personally I don't use the ulnar deviation snap wrist method, that I described as old fashioned.

It looks to me like he isn't always using ulnar deviation . I see he does the action 1:06-1:22,1:31-1:39,1:44-1:46,1:46-1:49

1:06-1:22 looks like he might be using ulnar deviation as his racket is pointing up and its close to him in the horizonal axis i.e barely wide of him / not far outside of him.
1:31-1:39 his racket is pointing very offset so I guess maybe he isn't there. It seems odd to me that he is using any "snap the wrist" there, and he's doing it very actively. That's not a method i've ever done!

and the last two he might be using ulnar deviation 'cos the racket seems like it might be pointing up more while not wide.

I notice at 1:58 when he has the guy in blue doing smashes, the racket face is parallel to the net, but (assuming he has forehand grip throughout), I guess that is 'cos the guy isn't following through as far as that the racket goes all the way across his body. And if he did then it'd finish where the older guy finished?

Reaching up like that can create steeper angles... but it's a trade off. The focus is getting the shuttle early more than creating maximum power. Luckily there's a lot in between those extremes.

yeah.. I think if he were really reaching up his elbow might be a bit higher sometimes. but yeah I agree that if the contact is more in front then then you get more swing and power into it.

 

[speCulatius]

Do you mean his racket turns in his hand and isn't maintaining a forehand grip?

No. Turning a racket is not the only change that you can make.

This is what is happening... the handle ends up (not quite, because he's holding it so low) between the 'buttcheeks' of his hand when he tightens the grip.

and @ralphz ...
I think your questions have been discussed throughly. When getting to a point when we talk about the grip when most of the racket cannot even be seen, we've reached the ceiling.

You seem to focus on many details, which can be helpful when trying to understand the game, but then you shouldn't look at coaching videos like these. Those videos (and there's a lot of bad ones) are for players who want to improve and focusing on too many or the wrong details will not help you to improve. Also, you seem to have a very clear picture when writing, but it's not the same for people who read it. To you, it meant turning the racket when I talked about changing grips. That's not the only way... You make many assumptions that you do not seem to be aware of. This makes it really hard and annoying to reply to all your questions, especially when I don't see a point in the question and the discussion is getting further and further away from your original question. Where are you going with this? Why? It seems useless to me.

 

[ralphz]

No. Turning a racket is not the only change that you can make.

Of course it isn't. I never said it was.

And in the post you just replied to, I asked you if when you said he is changing grip, you meant his racket was turning. "Do you mean his racket turns in his hand and isn't maintaining a forehand grip?"

That is not the same as assuming that when you said changing grip, you meant his racket was turning

The fact that I asked the question "Do you mean his racket turns in his hand", should suggest to you that I think it's possible you might mean something else..

It seems what you meant when you said he is changing his grip, was he is using his fingers to squeeze the racket into the palm of his hand. that doesn't really need a picture. There's no question there of what does it mean to use the fingers to squeeze the racket.

That's normal badminton to squeeze the racket, that's just use of fingers. That's not just him(as you know). Though of course you may be suggesting he is doing that while holding the handle lower than others.

I have never heard of somebody calling that(use of the fingers to squeeze the handle to the palm, as is universally done), "changing grip" as you did.

Hence I asked. . There's no assumption there in that question.

After that, I did consider the possibility that you meant his racket was turning. and (outside of a live communicaton scenario/platform), there's nothing wrong with considering if you meant something. You could simply say no you didn't mean that, you meant squeezing his fingers. (And yeah then anything I wrote that considers the possibility that you meant something you didn't, you can ignore the one or two paragraphs based off that, when you've stated that you didn't mean that).

In the event that you meant squeezing the grip(which I had actually considered and you apparently did), I have no question about that - squeezing. There's nothing strange or unusual about that, nothing I have to ask regarding that. Squeezing the racket into the palm is a standard thing. It doesn't need a picture. And I never asked what squeezing the grip means. Not that you even used that expression. I had considered that when you said changing the grip, that it's possible you meant squeezing the racket, (Hence I asked the question rather than just assumed), but I had nothing to ask re that possibility. And what i've been asking is more about unusual things re the technique shown in the video.

Also, people speak of low grip, high grip, (those are change of grips that don't involve racket turning), forehand grip, thumb grip, various racket turns, that's the usual sense of changing the grip. So it was a fair question to ask.

I guess it might have been simpler for you if i'd have asked do you mean W?X? other? And not said Do you mean W? And addressed that possibility, when there was a possibility that you didn't. Obviously in the event you meant squeezing the grip(which it turned out you meant), there's nothing to say re that.That's no difference between him squeezing the grip and anybody else e.g. into the palm.. that's normal. I've been asking about some unusual things re that technique in the video, vs the more modern technique. And i've asked some questions regarding what is going on with that technique in contrast to a more standard or modern technique.

I think you probably know you used absurd terminology by referring to squeezing the grip as changing the grip.. 'cos by your way of speaking , almost anybody doing a forehand overhead would change grip during the swing. Nobody would say or imply that you should change grip during the swing,other than you 'cos nobody uses that phrase that way, and it wouldn't surprise me if you have not used that phrase that way in any other thread. And I reckon your giant picture of squeezing the grip was agenda driven(similar to your other recent reply to me). And you knew there was no question about what squeezing the grip meant.