what do coaches write down during the match

Discussion in 'Coaching Forum' started by gasper, Nov 29, 2005.

  1. gasper

    gasper Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2005
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Slovenia
    as you all probably seen at least one match on tv or on your computer, maybe you noticed that once in a while camera shows the coaches while they write something down. i am wondering, is this like keeping score of unforced/forced errors, some tactial info... beacuse i am learning how to be a good coach i would love to know what to write down and what to do with that data after the match:D

    hope to hear from you soon
     
  2. Aleik

    Aleik Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2003
    Messages:
    222
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Let's not get encumbered by detail...(is the taxma
    Location:
    U.K.
    Coaches will write down which shots have a low percentage CONSISTENCY, and will try to diagnose the lack of consistency, with respect to footwork, technique, etc. and try to improve it.

    Of course, they will also try to figure out how to exploit strong abilities and when to employ them.

    They will also record patterns of play and concentration levels, which will certainly vary depending on the intensity of the match.

    It's largely down to how analytical you are with your data that determines whether you have the ability to improve these aspects. The important thing is don't try to CREATE hypotheses based on your data that may not be approved of by more experienced coaches, just make sure you have a rationale behind everything.

    Aleik.
     
  3. Mag

    Mag Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    3,347
    Likes Received:
    4
    Occupation:
    Graphic Designer
    Location:
    Stockholm, Sweden
    This is an interesting thread. I've also wondered about these match notes.

    Does anybody have an example of what these notes might look like, or are they "trade secrets"?

    Would the notes of one coach A mean something to coach B? Is there a "common practice" that is taught in coaching courses etc, or does each coach have a completely personal notation system? (I am assuming it's little of both)

    We need some high level coaches to can shed some light on this issue! :)
     
  4. coops241180

    coops241180 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,287
    Likes Received:
    1
    Occupation:
    Product Owner
    Location:
    Latchford, United Kingdom
    lol - not to disappoint anybody, but from what i understand the coach basically writes down every stroke played in the rally in some form of shorthand (think it's in one of jake downey's books)

    as the match goes on the coach(es) analyze the notes and look for patterns in the rally's that they can relay to the player at the interval, i would guess that any obvious notes are also taken alongside this shorthand.

    hope this helps

    Coops
     
  5. gasper

    gasper Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2005
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Slovenia
    is there anyone who knows how to do that and can possibly show us a short piece of that notation. it seem to me that write down every stroke is a bit too much, but hey, who am i too tell:)
    for start i only tried to write down forced/unforced errors and good shots that made points and it is something.

    Gasper
     
  6. coops241180

    coops241180 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,287
    Likes Received:
    1
    Occupation:
    Product Owner
    Location:
    Latchford, United Kingdom
    hmm...

    i've been looking for it again...

    all i can remember is

    C for clear
    D for drop
    L for lob
    N for net
    X for cross court
    F for forehand
    B for backhand.

    this way you could write XBC for cross court backhand clear.

    no need to write the movement of the players as the player must move to wear the shuttle was played..

    i may have missed bit's here, but that's the best i can remember of the top of my head..

    try a bit of practice on a video..
     
  7. DinkAlot

    DinkAlot dcbadminton
    Brand Representative

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2005
    Messages:
    12,682
    Likes Received:
    284
    Occupation:
    Social Distancing Specialist
    Location:
    Southern California
    They are writing love letters to their loved ones. :eek: :p :D

    Well, it's possible. :p
     
  8. Break-My-String

    Break-My-String Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2003
    Messages:
    728
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    WOW, the coaches shorthand must be "fasthand" because I don't think I can write more than one letter per shot let alone keeping my eyes on the game while I write.

    Maybe it is part of the assistant coach's training to learn how to take notes...

    "ahhh grasshoppa, yooo muss write fassa in oorda to bee head coach!" :D

    Cheers!
     
  9. coops241180

    coops241180 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,287
    Likes Received:
    1
    Occupation:
    Product Owner
    Location:
    Latchford, United Kingdom
    well yes.. i do think it takes a little practice - but soon your hand and eye can work as one.. and remember also that not all rally's have a lot of shots..
    and certainly very few rally's have long periods of rapid exchanges., howevever i don't know how this works for doubles...
    you might have to number the players and include that in the notation - but given the speed of the doubles game this could be very very difficult..

    could 'Our JR' help?
     
  10. gasper

    gasper Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2005
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Slovenia
    i tried:)

    It would be great:) I have to say i tried to write these "shortcuts" between matches and to tell you the truth, i made such a mess i couldnt read it afterwards:D later on that match i also talked to some coach who came from ukraina and he told me that he mostly writes down mistakes of players, like forced unforced errors. my opininon is that just this is not enough to tell you about that match.


    JR any suggestions?

    cheers,
     
  11. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2002
    Messages:
    16,849
    Likes Received:
    914
    Occupation:
    Semi-Retired
    Location:
    Singapore Also Can
    Yes I was also quite curious about what Misbun Sidek was doing on his hand-held "miniature computer" when he took notes of Kuan Beng Hong's match during the Aviva Singapore Open. On the other hand, Li Mao was literally jotting down notes on a piece of paper when his protege, Lee Chong Wei was playing.

    But my suspicion is that they do not do the same thing, firstly because they are different coaches from different schools and secondly because their trainees are different, with their own strengths and weaknesses about which only their separate coaches would have intimate knowledge.

    I am no coach but maybe we should try to imagine that we are the attending coaches during an important tournament and our trainee is about to play a match. What should we do and Not do? How can we help our trainee to perform better and win his match. How much time do we have to communicate with him so that it makes sense to him and not to try to cram too much into his already tired brain? Should we not convey our message to him in as short a sentence as possible? Should we not just encourage him to play better than to tell him all his mistakes (culled from our statistics) and what strokes he should use and to attack his opponent's weaker backhand more?

    What good are the tabulated statistics (I would use columns for each item I think is important and just tick against the relevant column instead of using alphabets and I think Misbun's computer is quick to provide a summary without his having to count them.) to us if we only record them and it leaves us little time to really analyse our trainee's game and that of his opponent? Did we notice that our trainee is lacking the mental strength to fight on and if so, what should we do?

    What I'm trying to say is that we should not waste too much time on analysing our trainee's technical mistakes because time is of essence during a match and there is precious little that we can spend on our trainees during the rest periods. An overview is necessary and we should say as little as possible to convey our message to the trainee. The trainee has to remain calm, get his drink, towel down and listen to you. Our job is to help him be more relaxed and ready for the next encounter. We should therefore be spending more time watching his match performance and jot down only the important aspects concerning him and his opponent.

    Unfortunately, I have seen trainees being scolded at instead of being encouraged during the rest periods. How about just telling him "Well Done!"and "Keep It Up!" and nothing more if your trainee is already winning? ;)
     
  12. Break-My-String

    Break-My-String Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2003
    Messages:
    728
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    I would think (speculating) that a coach would take note of the last 2 shots that ended the rally rather than the entire rally.

    ex/
    - backhand clear (down the line)
    - X-court drop -> lose rally

    If the coach sees the pattern repeatedly, he would need to inspire his player to prepare or to change tactics.

    At the end of the match, that will give the coach what shots the player may need improvement.

    Cheers!
     
  13. franxon

    franxon Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2005
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Singapore
    nothing important or anything you like to. that's the answer i got from my friend, a pro coach and an ex-chinese national player. he personally writes the strong & weak points, re-occuring errors and tactics of both players. the note is just served as a pointer for the instructions during the breaks. and if you have a good memory, no need to write anything. but definitely not recording every return or any statistics. as the preparation of an important match is always very detailed, the progress of the match wouldn't be too much beyond the coach's expectation and still within his control. the main job for the coach is to observe and feel things for the player(s) on the court, remind or correct the tactics etc.

    and he also told me that many of them hold a pen just because their peers do so! some of them actually don't write anything meaningful. but when the camera turns to you, you look cool on TV with a pen doing your own stuff not caring what's going on on the court. besides, it's a good way to disguise if you're nervous.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    i personally don't think it's so necessary to take a lot of notes during the match. if you take notes, you have no time to watch match, which changes every second; and if you have no time to watch match, you have nothing to take notes. it's not like in a classroom.

    I think if hard training is like science, court side instruction will be like art. what is not told to the players during the breaks is not worth your time taking notes during the match, all is on video tape. and not much are the players instructed during the breaks: you don't have enough time and you don't want to confuse your players.
     
    #13 franxon, Dec 21, 2005
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2005
  14. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2006
    Messages:
    26,902
    Likes Received:
    30
    Occupation:
    Professional Badminton Coach & Badminton Promoter
    Location:
    Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
    what do coaches write during a match

    Hi Gasper,

    A coach is also trainer who prepares a trainee for tournament matches.

    Before the trainee enters any tournament, the coach instructs, directs and trains the trainee in Technique, Skill, etc... The coach should have an intimate knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of the trainee, not only the physical but also the mental as well.

    Before a match, the coach and the trainee should have worked out some tactics/strategies to play against a particular opponent.

    During a match, the coach does not only observe the match as an outsider, but he is also in tune with the mindset of the trainee as he is playing the match.

    I, as a coach, am an advisor to my trainee as the match progresses. What I write down are just in points form. These points are just to remind me of what to inform the trainee during the short breaks between the games. It is like you having to give a “1-minute” speech to an audience, but you have only 1-minute to prepare that speech. So, what are the key points to be mentioned in that 1 minute? The points are related to tactics/strategies.

    I have to stress that the trainer and trainee must have an intimate knowledge of each other's way of communicating. The trainee must understand exactly what the coach is saying within the short break. There is no time for long speeches.

    Of course the player, as he is playing, is also forming his own analysis of the match. So during the break, he would want confirmation from his coach as to how he wants to continue with the match. His coach will confirms and verifies on such matters.

    I am saying that the notes that I write relate to what I want to inform my trainee during the short break.

    Sometimes, when my trainee happens to be so much stronger than his opponent, I use the break to discuss silly things like... “Let us win the match quickly, so that we can go for a nice dinner tonight before we return tomorrow for our next match?” But note the key words, “to win the match quickly”. This is to keep his “concentration and focus” on winning the match, because I know that he could become too complacent, knowing that his opponent is so much less superior than him. You should know that overconfidence can bring disastrous effects. Try not to be too cocky, and concentrate on the job to be done.

     
  15. gasper

    gasper Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2005
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Slovenia
    very nice post indeed! im glad to see that someone still happened to reply to this post. You wrote some interesting points and i agree to them, now the next thing is i have to learn to read "the game" and the opponent weaknes and advantages. I really hope to attend ebu coaching week next year, cause this year they send two other coaches from my country:)

    bye
     
  16. krisss

    krisss Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    ? ?The Moon? ?
    Hmmmm very interesting , i will ask some very high coaches soon , and i'll try to post back.:D:D
     
  17. drop2it

    drop2it Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2007
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Part-Time Student, Full-time Badminton Fanatic
    Location:
    Sherwood Park, Alberta, Canda
    I would think that a numbering/lettering system would be more effective than just letters. the numbers would indicate where the shuttle would land if left untouched:

    Baseline
    -------
    5 6 7
    4 * 8
    3 2 1
    -------net
    1 2 3
    8 * 4
    7 6 5
    -------
    Baseline

    Letters in front of the numbers would indicate Clear (C), or Smash (S). Drop is not needed because only a drop can land on 1, 2, or 3. With practice I think this would be an easy way to notate a game

    Hence, a short rally might look like: 5, 1, 3, C7, 1, C5, S8.
     
    #17 drop2it, Jan 20, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2009
  18. 8061991

    8061991 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2007
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Australia
    They probably take notes of the players opponents, since in the circuit they run into each other too often.
     
  19. megafreak

    megafreak Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2009
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    singapore,woodlands
    for consistency , do they count till 100 shots
    then they count the number that specific shot in that random 100 shots to show
    the percentage? eg; 40 feints in 100 random shots = 40% of feinting


    im asking coz tats wats im doing now

    :)
     
  20. krisss

    krisss Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    ? ?The Moon? ?
    I'm still really interested in this question.

    I know a few ex international players , and a few current international players.

    I'll ask them today , and if they don't know , I will ask them to ask there coaches.

    I think it might be errors the opponent has made , for you to capatilise on.

    I'm not sure - because at that standard of badminton , there is not really lots of footwork mistakes that I always try to capatalise on.

    Will find out today :D
     

Share This Page