Why LCW can't beat LD

[renbo]

You'll excuse me while I have a good chuckle over this one. Let's talk some real data shall we? The winner of the last ten World Championships. Lin Dan of course won it five times. He was the youngest winner at 23, but then again, he is the greatest ever. Hendrawan was 29 when he won in 2001. Xia Xuanze was about to turn 25. Taufik Hiyadat was 24. Chen Jin was about to turn 25 (huge upset that year).

Chen Long is a 25 year World Champion. He is also the only one among those who had the misfortune of playing in the same era as an in-prime Lin Dan. Forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but I think he's coming along rather nicely.

But hey, let's talk about pressure. The Datuk is under so much pressure. The Datuk works so hard. Ad nauseum. Wow, sure is hard being Lee Chongwei. Everyone else has it easy.

Take Chen Long for example. He only had to make it through China's rigorous training system. I heard Du Pengyu recently retired (widely acknowledged as one of the hardest workers out there). So basically you make the Chinese national team at 21 or so. If you don't show results, you're done around 26 or so. No pressure/hard work there at all.

Then when you do make the team, you are expected to win and not winning is not acceptable. I find it hilarious that Malaysian fans can claim Lee Chongwei is under a lot of pressure because the whole country would like him to win while thinking Chen Long is not under pressure when the whole of China EXPECT him to win.

And of course, Chen Long is playing under the shadow of Lin Dan, the greatest ever. Imagine trying to fill those shoes. No, he's not being measure against his peers or even one of the top players. He's being measured against the GREATEST EVER. He is constantly being compared and told he's not good enough, he isn't Lin Dan and will never be/beat Lin Dan, then people get angry when he doesn't play like Lin Dan (say like, at the Thomas Cup). Now ain't that something? For someone who people say isn't Lin Dan, they sure expect him to play like Lin Dan.

Yeah, being the face of Chinese badminton is such a walk in the park. But the Datuk, that's all pressure/mental block.

I did not say others don't have pressure, I said people react differently to pressure. Learn to read bloke.
LCW, like many very talented and hard working player, is a choker.
CL can also be a choker. Time will tell if he matures differently.

 

[renbo]

j4ckie, just to let you know, CL and LD don't train or spar with each other anymore since LOG'12 as reported in the CHN newsmedia and acknowledged and permitted by LYB. The reasons are obvious as they are both vying for the same goals.

galaxyduo, you made a very good point and I tend to agree with you that CL is fast becoming, if not already so, LD's archrival surpassing LCW. I came to this thinking esp after watching their AG final where CL played fascinating badminton forcing LD to be at his best from G2 onwards after being stunned into conceding G1. It appeared to me in G1 that LD was trying more to sap CL's energy who was clearly going all out to win as we've to bear in mind that was the final match of the AG's two weeks' of badminton for LD. Anyhow LD was as always fully aware of his own condition and knew how to pace himself in view of his younger, more athletic opponent for CL was apparently less ferocious and persistent in attacking LD in G2 and G3. However, kudos to CL who was able to push LD really hard until the very end.

That's why I believe LD would do whatever he could to keep CL in his place,the last thing he wants is to let CL steal a march on him before the start of the Olympic cycle so as to maintain his still overwhelming psychological advantage. I'm sure LD will do likewise to LCW, at least in all the majors though not essential for the lesser tournaments as peaking at the right time is more important for LD than winning every encounter.

As for CL vis-a-vis LCW, I daresay CL is no longer afraid of LCW, on the contrary he has the self-confidence and inner belief that he can deal with LCW more often than not which he has demonstrated in impressive fashion by prevailing in their last two confrontations at the Copenhagen WC'14 and in the AG team event that followed. In fact, he should be in no uncertain doubt at all that the living legend Lin Dan remains the one and only still insurmountable obstacle to his quest for world supremacy and greatness although his next aim is the Olympic gold.

It should also be borne in mind that when Chen Long really started to beat LCW occasionally, he was about 22 years old (at the JPN Open Sep'11), not yet at his prime whilst the mighty LCW was still very much on top of his game, virtually staying at his peak from Beijing'08 to London'12 during which practically no-one else apart from Lin Dan could take a match off him (albeit Son Wan Ho was the only exception at the IND Open SS 2012), iirc. As a matter of fact, Chen Long now holds a 10-9 H2H advantage over LCW when you include their Asian Games team match. As an aside,you might be surprised to know that Chen Long has once, only once, beaten Lin Dan, that at a domestic league - offhand I couldn't recall where I read it, a Chinese article; if any of you have come across it, kindly post the link here.

LCW has a mental block when facing Lin Dan? Why not, esp when he consistently loses to the same opponent but I hasten to add that's not the only nor the main reason for his downfall - Lin Dan's technical superiority, overall strategy, match preparation, and mental strength are other factors. Remember, even LCW's coach, Tay Seu Bok, once blurted that LCW often choked when playing Lin Dan.

Is LCW closely matched with Lin Dan on the whole, specifically in terms of skills, as several of their epic battles seem to indicate? Maybe yes, once upon a time from after Beijing'08 to London'12 , maybe not so or not anymore. Why do I say that? My humble argument goes like this - if you take their encounters individually, particularly when the score ended in a narrow victory for Lin Dan, it would appear that LCW came close to beating his nemesis, therefore they were evenly matched; however, when you consider their overall results, the H2H of 22-9 in Lin Dan's favour, the undeniable statistics is loud and clear, objectively speaking, esp when you look at their major championships face-offs, they are irrefutably lop-sided towards Lin Dan. Normally, you'd expect a closely-matched opponent to take the odd win but in LCW's case, it's zilch in every single one of the showdowns that mattered to both adversaries, regardless the score, never mind whether it's a slim margin of victory or an outright, comprehensive rout it'd always end with Lin Dan invariably raising his clenched fists aloft in ultimate triumph again and again.

I agree with you but for CL, if the H2H with LCW shows consistency by CL, it is not always the case against other opponents, as CL lose in early rounds more often then LCW. But that might reflect the different priorities of the two players, LCW putting emphasis on SS, CL preparing for the big ones.
But the recent loss in the Thomas cup was indeed a big one, and on the AG's team event as well. That shows CL is not always the master of his nerves.

 

[renbo]

Which is only natural I would say
LD said himself on many occasion : one cannot win them all and losing is a part of the game

 

[mindreader]

I never said LD/LCW were equal. Dont be ridiculous, theres no way that can be said - I merely pointed out a few things I noticed MAY work in LD's advantage, some of them by his choice, and a few that dont work against him as his die-hard fans want anyone to believe (he didnt come back spontaneously to win the AG).
I dont think he won this by chance and I never said so - I just said him winning the 16-20 game WAS a bit lucky, and anyone disregarding that has never played at a decent level or worships LD as some kind of god.
Basically youre just extrapolating on my statement - Chen Long is physically superior to the two others, and while LCW cant reliably overcome that advantage, LD plays a different game that is -in my eyes- designed to keep the pace low and keep his effort to a minimum until he either frustrates his opoonent and counters a weak shot or has pulled His opponent out of position and attacks. His attack is very patient though, so he doesnt really give many counter-attacking opportunities, whereas LCW gets frustrated at times and tries to punch the shuttle through...

Let me start by reminding you that this is a Lee Chongwei vs. Lin Dan thread. The reason I brought up Chen Long is to show that there is a gap (a gulf in fact) between the two. Whereas Lin can still reliably beat Chen Long, Lee Chongwei can no longer reliably do so. That alone shows the gap, as opposed to some mythical "mental gap" that some members here espouses. Since you agree with Lin being superior to Lee, there really wasn't a need for you to respond.

If your point was that Chen Long is still unreliable, I'm inclined to agree with that, due to his age. If your point was that there is very little difference in abilities between Chen and Lee, I'm inclined to agree with that too, though as I mentioned, the match-up is increasingly favorable towards Chen as he matures/enters his prime.

But the topic at hand? Lin is better, that's all that needs to be said.

I did not say others don't have pressure, I said people react differently to pressure. Learn to read bloke.
LCW, like many very talented and hard working player, is a choker.
CL can also be a choker. Time will tell if he matures differently.

Lee Chongwei may very well be a choker. What you have done however, is attempting to explain his losses to Lin Dan as exclusively because he's a choker. As the head to head record is increasingly skewed, that is becoming an even more untenuous position even if one didn't think that the case to begin with.

By the same token, Hu Yun didn't lose to Lin Dan either. Obviously he "choked" on the big one. Heck, if we allow such indulgence, all losses can be attributed to "mental block" as opposed to skills. That's a funny position to claim.

I agree with you but for CL, if the H2H with LCW shows consistency by CL, it is not always the case against other opponents, as CL lose in early rounds more often then LCW. But that might reflect the different priorities of the two players, LCW putting emphasis on SS, CL preparing for the big ones.
But the recent loss in the Thomas cup was indeed a big one, and on the AG's team event as well. That shows CL is not always the master of his nerves.

Except that I'm not claiming that Chen Long lost due to his nerves now, am I? I'm saying that he's losing because he isn't good enough. He's getting there but not quite there yet. I don't think Chen Long "choked" in the Thomas Cup. I think he didn't PLAY WELL ENOUGH. And his form even prior to that tournament was questionable. Those are not "mental" questions. Those are "skills" questions.

Which is only natural I would say
LD said himself on many occasion : one cannot win them all and losing is a part of the game

Losing one is expected. Losing several is a trend. Losing with a overwhelming head to head record means that other player is better.

 

[renbo]

My reply was to Justin's quote, not to you. Learn to read bloke.

 

[mindreader]

My reply was to Justin's quote, not to you. Learn to read bloke.

I read just fine. But you're points are so asinine I felt compelled to respond. Logic obviously wasn't your forte, bloke.

 

[Tybalt]

Why is everyone speaking so venomously? Chill, people. Excessive patriotism makes you look stupid.

 

[j4ckie]

Let me start by reminding you that this is a Lee Chongwei vs. Lin Dan thread. The reason I brought up Chen Long is to show that there is a gap (a gulf in fact) between the two. Whereas Lin can still reliably beat Chen Long, Lee Chongwei can no longer reliably do so. That alone shows the gap, as opposed to some mythical "mental gap" that some members here espouses. Since you agree with Lin being superior to Lee, there really wasn't a need for you to respond.

-snikt-

I always respond when someone misunderstand my posts, be it accidentally or on purpose to make some sort of point. When you implied I had stated in some form that LCW was in fact a better player than LD, I corrected you. While I like LCW much better and assume (from what I can see on TV/in tournaments) that he is a much nicer person, there is no disputing that LD is in fact the better badminton player.
Personally I disagree on the LCW/LD vs CL thing - being coached extensively against one player and not at all against another will make that other guy look a lot better, but I'm tired of arguing the same points again and again just to have you skip over them conveniently and instead distort another part of my argument. Let's just come to the agreement that we appear to have different views of the 3 players, other than LD being the best of them.

Why is everyone speaking so venomously? Chill, people. Excessive patriotism makes you look stupid.

I fully agree. Although I guess most involved in the discussion are rather avid fans (or haters) of particular players rather than patriots

 

[Tybalt]

Good assessment. I'm still trying to work out why this sport attracts so much vitriol in the mainstream fanbase as opposed to just the fringes. It's fanatical and in no healthy way.

 

[nokh88]

Wow, you guys are still at it!!!

Good assessment. I'm still trying to work out why this sport attracts so much vitriol in the mainstream fanbase as opposed to just the fringes. It's fanatical and in no healthy way.

Because nowadays there are too many Jia You fans and they can't accept it when their idols are being bashed.

For me, as a badminton fan, currently, it is LD>CL>LCW.
Period.
Go home, wash your car, do some gardening and come back here on Oct 24 2014.

 

[nokh88]

Someone said LCW should retire and I have also said that before, if he regulrly looses on SF day.

If he still wants to continue playing, it best for him to change coach.
They aren't of any help to him anymore,
Otherwise, retire.

Saw this today : Hmmmn..exactly what I said earlier.

 

[renbo]

I think it is not particular to badminton. I think football forums and tennis forums develops the same kind of foolishness. May be because of young age? I noticed obsessions about ranking is common among young folks.

 

[Jonc108]

Good assessment. I'm still trying to work out why this sport attracts so much vitriol in the mainstream fanbase as opposed to just the fringes. It's fanatical and in no healthy way.

Badminton = bad mind tons = tons of bad mind = lack of logic, unfortunately

 

[Tybalt]

I think it is not particular to badminton. I think football forums and tennis forums develops the same kind of foolishness. May be because of young age? I noticed obsessions about ranking is common among young folks.

But it's around the fringes in other sports. You never hear Chicago Cubs fans theorise about how the Yankees cheated because they paid the referee who was actually a 00 agent lizard creature and the solar system aligned into a specific arrangement at the precise moment Derek Jeter went to bat such that it made a gravitational situation in which it was easier for him to hit homeruns, thus explaining how they lost 23 - 9.

You have the Wei Wei diehards making up these incessant excuses for his losses and demonising Lin Dan as if the world is made up of real life comic book heroes and villains; then you have the Chinese acolytes who would lop off their own arm and throw it into the path of an egg that was headed for Lin Dan's face.

The stuff you hear some head coaches of the sport talk about even makes you roll your eyes. There's a conspiracy at every turn in badminton! If they ever commission a book about the sport they'd need to hire Robert Ludlum to write it.

I know these people exist in all sports, but in badminton the paranoia and fanaticism seems to run in the mainstream. I dunno. I'm not super confident about this and maybe I'm making a big deal of it all, but it has seemed this way to me for a long time.

Badminton = bad mind tons = tons of bad mind = lack of logic, unfortunately

That's as good a theory as any!

 

[sange]

林丹--李宗伟交手纪录

（2014-08-28统计）
全部战绩统计：林丹27（36）9李宗伟
国际羽联统计：林丹23（32）9李宗伟


交战日期 赛事名称 胜者 比分
36 2014-08-11 仁川亚运会半决赛 林 丹 22-20/12-21/21-9（第一局16：20翻盘）
35 2013-08-11 广州第20届世锦赛决赛 林 丹 16-21 21-13 20-17（抽筋退赛）
33 2012-03-12 全英公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-19/6-2李退赛
32 2012-01-08 韩国公开赛决赛 李宗伟 12-21/21-18/21-14
31 2011-11-26 中国公开赛半决赛 林 丹 19-21/21-12/21-11
30 2011-11-19 香港羽毛球超级赛半决赛 林 丹 21-17/21-14
29 2011-11-11 四大天王争霸赛决赛(非正式) 林 丹 21-19/21-12/22-20★
28 2011-08-14 伦敦第19届世锦赛决赛 林 丹 20-22/21-14/23-21
27 2011-03-13 全英公开赛决赛 李宗伟 21-17/21-17
26 2011-01-30 韩国公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-19/14-21/21-16
25 2010-11-21 广州亚运会决赛 林 丹 21-13/15-21/21-10★
24 2010-09-26 日本公开赛决赛 李宗伟 22-20 16-21 21-17
23 2010-05-14 第26届汤姆斯杯半决赛 林 丹 21-17/21-8
22 2009-11-24 东营国际巅峰对抗赛（非正式）林 丹 21-18/21-19★
21 2009-09-19 中国大师赛半决赛 林 丹 22-20/15-21/21-7
20 2009-05-16 第11届苏迪曼杯半决赛 林 丹 21-16/21-16
19 2009-03-15 瑞士超级赛半决赛 李宗伟 21-16 21-16
18 2009-03-08 全英公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-19/21-12
17 2008-11-23 中国公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-18/21-9
16 2008-08-17 北京第29届奥运会决赛 林 丹 21-12/21-8
15 2008-05-16 第25届汤姆斯杯半决赛 李宗伟 21-12 21-14
14 2008-03-16 瑞士公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-13/21-18
13 2007-12-02 香港公开赛决赛 林 丹 9-21/21-15/21-15
12 2007-09-15 日本公开赛半决赛 李宗伟 21-19/21-15
11 2007-07-14 中国公开赛半决赛 林 丹 15-21/21-14/21-15
10 2007-06-14 第10届苏迪曼杯小组赛 李宗伟 21-17/21-17
09 2006-09-02 香港公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-19/8-21/21-16
08 2006-07-23 澳门公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-18/18-21/21-18
07 2006-06-25 台北公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-18/12-21/21-11
06 2006-06-18 马来西亚公开赛决赛 李宗伟 21-18 18-21 23-21
(决胜局林丹20：13被翻盘)
05 2006-01-22 全英公开赛半决赛 林 丹 15-9/10-15/17-14
04 2005-11-05 香港公开赛半决赛 林 丹 4-15/6-15
03 2005-07-10 马来西亚公开赛决赛 李宗伟 17-15/9-15/15-9
02 2004-02-22 第23届汤姆斯杯预选赛 林 丹 3-15/15-13/15-6
01 2000-07-25 日本亚青赛1/4决赛 林 丹 7-2/0-7/7-3
★四项比赛未在世界羽联统计范围内，2007年羽联推出系列超级赛。

 

[sange]

as for the information from the two sides, that is equal. the results of the matches prove LD is better than LCW. LCW is no match for super Dan.

 

[Devendra]

林丹--李宗伟交手纪录

（2014-08-28统计）
全部战绩统计：林丹27（36）9李宗伟
国际羽联统计：林丹23（32）9李宗伟


交战日期 赛事名称 胜者 比分
36 2014-08-11 仁川亚运会半决赛 林 丹 22-20/12-21/21-9（第一局16：20翻盘）
35 2013-08-11 广州第20届世锦赛决赛 林 丹 16-21 21-13 20-17（抽筋退赛）
33 2012-03-12 全英公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-19/6-2李退赛
32 2012-01-08 韩国公开赛决赛 李宗伟 12-21/21-18/21-14
31 2011-11-26 中国公开赛半决赛 林 丹 19-21/21-12/21-11
30 2011-11-19 香港羽毛球超级赛半决赛 林 丹 21-17/21-14
29 2011-11-11 四大天王争霸赛决赛(非正式) 林 丹 21-19/21-12/22-20★
28 2011-08-14 伦敦第19届世锦赛决赛 林 丹 20-22/21-14/23-21
27 2011-03-13 全英公开赛决赛 李宗伟 21-17/21-17
26 2011-01-30 韩国公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-19/14-21/21-16
25 2010-11-21 广州亚运会决赛 林 丹 21-13/15-21/21-10★
24 2010-09-26 日本公开赛决赛 李宗伟 22-20 16-21 21-17
23 2010-05-14 第26届汤姆斯杯半决赛 林 丹 21-17/21-8
22 2009-11-24 东营国际巅峰对抗赛（非正式）林 丹 21-18/21-19★
21 2009-09-19 中国大师赛半决赛 林 丹 22-20/15-21/21-7
20 2009-05-16 第11届苏迪曼杯半决赛 林 丹 21-16/21-16
19 2009-03-15 瑞士超级赛半决赛 李宗伟 21-16 21-16
18 2009-03-08 全英公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-19/21-12
17 2008-11-23 中国公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-18/21-9
16 2008-08-17 北京第29届奥运会决赛 林 丹 21-12/21-8
15 2008-05-16 第25届汤姆斯杯半决赛 李宗伟 21-12 21-14
14 2008-03-16 瑞士公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-13/21-18
13 2007-12-02 香港公开赛决赛 林 丹 9-21/21-15/21-15
12 2007-09-15 日本公开赛半决赛 李宗伟 21-19/21-15
11 2007-07-14 中国公开赛半决赛 林 丹 15-21/21-14/21-15
10 2007-06-14 第10届苏迪曼杯小组赛 李宗伟 21-17/21-17
09 2006-09-02 香港公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-19/8-21/21-16
08 2006-07-23 澳门公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-18/18-21/21-18
07 2006-06-25 台北公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-18/12-21/21-11
06 2006-06-18 马来西亚公开赛决赛 李宗伟 21-18 18-21 23-21
(决胜局林丹20：13被翻盘)
05 2006-01-22 全英公开赛半决赛 林 丹 15-9/10-15/17-14
04 2005-11-05 香港公开赛半决赛 林 丹 4-15/6-15
03 2005-07-10 马来西亚公开赛决赛 李宗伟 17-15/9-15/15-9
02 2004-02-22 第23届汤姆斯杯预选赛 林 丹 3-15/15-13/15-6
01 2000-07-25 日本亚青赛1/4决赛 林 丹 7-2/0-7/7-3
★四项比赛未在世界羽联统计范围内，2007年羽联推出系列超级赛。

Can you please translate?

 

[jkkwongnz]

This record showed that LCW can beat LD. He beat LD nine times in his career so far. No one else can achieve this.

林丹--李宗伟交手纪录

（2014-08-28统计）
全部战绩统计：林丹27（36）9李宗伟
国际羽联统计：林丹23（32）9李宗伟


交战日期 赛事名称 胜者 比分
36 2014-08-11 仁川亚运会半决赛 林 丹 22-20/12-21/21-9（第一局16：20翻盘）
35 2013-08-11 广州第20届世锦赛决赛 林 丹 16-21 21-13 20-17（抽筋退赛）
33 2012-03-12 全英公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-19/6-2李退赛
32 2012-01-08 韩国公开赛决赛 李宗伟 12-21/21-18/21-14
31 2011-11-26 中国公开赛半决赛 林 丹 19-21/21-12/21-11
30 2011-11-19 香港羽毛球超级赛半决赛 林 丹 21-17/21-14
29 2011-11-11 四大天王争霸赛决赛(非正式) 林 丹 21-19/21-12/22-20★
28 2011-08-14 伦敦第19届世锦赛决赛 林 丹 20-22/21-14/23-21
27 2011-03-13 全英公开赛决赛 李宗伟 21-17/21-17
26 2011-01-30 韩国公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-19/14-21/21-16
25 2010-11-21 广州亚运会决赛 林 丹 21-13/15-21/21-10★
24 2010-09-26 日本公开赛决赛 李宗伟 22-20 16-21 21-17
23 2010-05-14 第26届汤姆斯杯半决赛 林 丹 21-17/21-8
22 2009-11-24 东营国际巅峰对抗赛（非正式）林 丹 21-18/21-19★
21 2009-09-19 中国大师赛半决赛 林 丹 22-20/15-21/21-7
20 2009-05-16 第11届苏迪曼杯半决赛 林 丹 21-16/21-16
19 2009-03-15 瑞士超级赛半决赛 李宗伟 21-16 21-16
18 2009-03-08 全英公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-19/21-12
17 2008-11-23 中国公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-18/21-9
16 2008-08-17 北京第29届奥运会决赛 林 丹 21-12/21-8
15 2008-05-16 第25届汤姆斯杯半决赛 李宗伟 21-12 21-14
14 2008-03-16 瑞士公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-13/21-18
13 2007-12-02 香港公开赛决赛 林 丹 9-21/21-15/21-15
12 2007-09-15 日本公开赛半决赛 李宗伟 21-19/21-15
11 2007-07-14 中国公开赛半决赛 林 丹 15-21/21-14/21-15
10 2007-06-14 第10届苏迪曼杯小组赛 李宗伟 21-17/21-17
09 2006-09-02 香港公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-19/8-21/21-16
08 2006-07-23 澳门公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-18/18-21/21-18
07 2006-06-25 台北公开赛决赛 林 丹 21-18/12-21/21-11
06 2006-06-18 马来西亚公开赛决赛 李宗伟 21-18 18-21 23-21
(决胜局林丹20：13被翻盘)
05 2006-01-22 全英公开赛半决赛 林 丹 15-9/10-15/17-14
04 2005-11-05 香港公开赛半决赛 林 丹 4-15/6-15
03 2005-07-10 马来西亚公开赛决赛 李宗伟 17-15/9-15/15-9
02 2004-02-22 第23届汤姆斯杯预选赛 林 丹 3-15/15-13/15-6
01 2000-07-25 日本亚青赛1/4决赛 林 丹 7-2/0-7/7-3
★四项比赛未在世界羽联统计范围内，2007年羽联推出系列超级赛。

 

[badrad]

Looking at the win loss ratio, LCW is due for a win against LD. Depending on the penalty imposed on the doping incident, as to when he can play again.

 

[julianng]

Will LCW beat LD in WC ??

or everyone just tired of watching LCW play these days...