Day 5: FINAL - China vs Indonesia

Discussion in 'Sudirman Cup 2005' started by apontoh, May 14, 2005.

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Who wins the Sudirman Cup?

Poll closed May 16, 2005.
  1. China

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  2. Indonesia

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  1. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    I also think it is unlikely any favours were given. China needs to show it can pull off an event in 2008 called the Olympics. Any large tournament with clear favouritism is going to show China up in a bad light which is exacly what the Chinese authorities do not want.
     
  2. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

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    I don't think Taufik is more artistic than Lin Dan or Peter Gade. People like to watch Lin Dan v Taufik because there is intense rivalry between them. People like the drama of rivalry. People prefer to watch Peter v Taufik or Peter v Lin Dan, rather than Peter v Kenneth. People like Hafiz v Lee Chong Wei, primarily because they come from different "supposedly rival" camps. The art is secondary. It is nice to have, but it is the fight-to-the-death, tooth-and-nail drama that will keep people excited.
     
  3. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    AFAIK, Nova used to partner with Vita Marissa, until she got injured, thus he partnered with Lilyana...During his time with Vita(according to Worldbadminton.net) Nova & Vita was able to win the Japan Open edition last year before Vita got injured. But overall, they didn't go far either in most of the tournaments they played in, not until he tag-teamed with Lilyana recently, in the last 6-7 months, where they both played real well and won a few tournaments and have been in some of the SF and Finals..

    However, they(Nova&Lilyana) haven't get over that big "hump" yet. For some reason, i noticed esp. during the Swiss Open, in the Finals against Robertson/Emms, Nova seemed "jittery" unlike Lilyana. Some of his decisions during the games I watched, seemed to put Lilyana in an owkward and very compromising position. The thing is, he played against Robertson and Emms before and won(with Lilyana and Vita), but this time it didn't happen. I don't know for some reason, he has a "mental block" playing in the Finals. Even after they went back home to Indonesia after the Swiss Open, PBSI noticed the same thing and mentioned that Nova shouldn't be the one who feels "stage fright/fever", because he is more senior than Lilyana.

    About him changing partner and Lilyana getting a new XD partner, i wouldn't be against it either. Last I heard Vita Marissa is recovering and should be active soon. Personally I don't think getting her paired up with any MD specialist listed below is a reasonable idea. PBSI need to partner her with a XD specialist. They have 3 options/names:Flandy, Anggun or go with a younger partner XD specialist, within 1-2 yrs. difference with her. I mentioned to go with a younger partner for long-term purposes. As I look at it, her main competition within 2-3 yrs. will be against the Malaysian's KooKK/WongPT and Koreans Lee/Lee and a few others. With 3 months to go until the WC, perhaps PBSI can re-unite Nova and Vita again. And find a new partner for Lilyana??..If they can get a "steadier" partner to play with Lilyana, then Indos will have 2 pairs they can rely on for the rest of the year, considering Anggun is currently on the mend/not healthy and Yunita will need a new partner in the meantime..

     
  4. Qidong

    Qidong Regular Member

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    What could be the reasons causing Taufik to slow down in the second game? Obsviously it's not because of poor line calls. Even the chance to beat China is slim after losing the XD match, he should still be motivated to beat Lin Dan in order to keep his promise. He shouldn't have exhaused after playing Peter Gade. The is no report saying that he is injured. :confused: :confused: :confused:
     
  5. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    Well, I won't call him a "great mixed player". Yes, I also thought about not "burying" Nova so quickly, maybe the time is not yet for him. Maybe after ZJ and GaoL are gone??..
    Anyway, here's his playing record so far(his last 7 were with Lilyana and first 7 were with Vita). http://www.worldbadminton.net/Portal/desktopmodules/mbiography.asp?pnumber=7934
    His record with Lilyana is *slightly* better as he was able to get to 3(SFs), 2 (QFs), 1 Final, and 1 Winner. Whilst with Vita he was able to get to 2(QFs), 3(SFs), 1(1/16) and 1 Winner.

    Date Event Name Round
    5 Apr 2005 YONEX OPEN JAPAN 2005 Quarter-Finals

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    15 Mar 2005 SWISS OPEN 2005 Gold Medal Final

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    8 Mar 2005 YONEX ALL ENGLAND OPEN 2005 Semi-Finals

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    25 Jan 2005 NOONNOPPI KOREA OPEN 2005 Semi-Finals

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    13 Dec 2004 DJARUM INDONESIA OPEN 2004 Quarter-Finals

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    15 Nov 2004 AVIVA OPEN SINGAPORE 2004 Winner

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    9 Nov 2004 CHINA OPEN 2004 Semi-Finals

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    14 Aug 2004 OLYMPIC GAMES 2004 Quarter-Finals

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    29 Jun 2004 Proton-Eon MALAYSIA OPEN 2004 Semi-Finals

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    20 Apr 2004 Asian Championships 2004 Semi-Finals

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    6 Apr 2004 YONEX OPEN JAPAN 2004 Winner

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    30 Mar 2004 NOONNOPPI KOREA OPEN 2004 Quarter-Finals

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    9 Mar 2004 YONEX ALL ENGLAND OPEN 2004 Semi-Finals

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    2 Mar 2004 SWISS OPEN 2004 1/16

    The thing is, this is his 2nd time playing and lost in the Finals after having a lead. The last time, as i mentioned before, was when he played and lost in straight sets against Robertson/Emms in the Swiss Final. A 3* tournament and the pair which he defeated a few times before ..

     
  6. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    i have a different analysis for the Lin & Taufik match.

    first thing i noticed after re-watching the game (again.. ;) ) is the contrast between first and second game. Taufik to my eyes was trying hard and has not given up in the first game. both sides are playing one of the best games. frankly, the 1st game could've tipped either way. Lin won the game because he maintained focused and stepped up another gear in the last few points.

    the reason why Lin was able to control Taufik and others do not is because he did a lot of homework on Taufik. he knows exactly where Taufik's strength and weaknesses and he actively try to nullify and exploit respectively.

    Taufik strength is his tight net followed by a very powerful and sharp jumpsmash into either sideline. when Taufik gets his way, even Lin Dan in incapable of defending it. Lin Dan managed to continue engage Taufik at the net instead of lifting, and that's why we see a lot more net battles and consequently more netkills in the first game. Lin Dan just wouldn't lift when others who faces Taufik would. a lift is almost a certain death (ok, say 75%) while continuing engaging the net may mean around 50% death. a much better odds.

    the second is Taufik's backhand. Taufik's backhand is his strength and also his weakness. he relies too much on his strong backhand but no matter how strong one's backhand is, it is still not as strong as the forehand. as a result, Lin Dan managed to pin Taufik at the rear court with fast and flat lifts.

    these tactics has frustrated Taufik in the 1st game and at times i could feel that Taufik gets impatient having to deal with other shots. and frankly, while i think both players are excellent net players, Lin Dan wins out in that game.

    and of course, Lin Dan isn't easy meat either. he too have his jumpsmashes and all around skills, and when it comes to trick shots, his are in par with Taufik.

    2nd set is a completely different game. from the onset of the game, Taufik was noticably slower paced. it wasn't apparent at this stage whether it was because Taufik has given up psychologically or if he is physically exhausted (or both). but the end result is that he isn't trying as hard. he chose to either drop, clear, or light smash in occasions where he would've jumpsmashed in the first game. as a result, rallies are longer and Lin Dan noticing a slower Taufik was more than happy to drag the match on. by the middle of the second game, it was obvious that Taufik was physically exhausted and Lin Dan continue to exploit that, rallying till Taufik just could not keep up. at this point, all was lost, Lin Dan was the fitter player.

    to conclude, i think Taufik did try despite the fact that the Cup was practically lost to China at the onset of the match. but after losing the first game, all fighting spirit and/or energy was depleted from Taufik, resulting in his first recent defeat to Lin Dan.
     
  7. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    I thought the Danes fielded the wrong XD pair. IMO, Kamilla should've paired with her regular partner Thomas Laybourn. Either that or JE/MetteS as they've defeated Nova/Lilyana before. But that's second guessing and hindsight.

    Playing against an experience XD pairs in Gao/ZJ or Robertson/Emms, the guy must make good shot selections, placement and who to attack. In the SC Final, for some reason it showed that Nova wasn't able to change/counter and in a sense read China's tactics. Rather than minimizing Lilyana position to play in the back in several occasions, he could've reverse the situation. Add to that, his many errors which caused the Chinese to get easy points. It could be a case of lost of focus, but he's more senior than Lilyana and should adapt quickly..

    Now, I wouldn't say Flandy or a different guy is the solution, but maybe that's what Lilyana need, a "steadier" partner...She has come so close, but failed..
    Anyhoo, we shall see what will the XD look like come WC..I wouldn't be surprise either if Nova&Lilyana are still partner..

     
  8. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    haha. i was typing my long reply as you were typing this one.

    it wasn't clear to me at the begining of the 2nd game why Taufik was slower. it could be he mentally gave up, or it could be physically tiredness, or a combination, i could not tell.

    however, it was quite apparently that stamina was the major factor why Taufik was slower during the latter part of the 2nd game. he just could not keep up with the pace of the shuttle. to my eyes, his movement and body language indicates that he body is not keeping up instead of he actively choosing not to try.
     
  9. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    one skill not mention commonly is energy management.
    LD paced himself as tho he had to play a 3rd game. He had plenty of hidden energy reserve. Even at 12-14, LD upped his pace to thwart off taufik's match point, twice. On the 2nd game, LD continue his regular pace to match up or slightly ahead of taufik, still thinking he might need to play a 3rd game, that is why the score was still tight on the 1st half of 2nd game. Of course, taufik lost the sting in the latter half of 2nd game and LD cruise to win the match. LD energy level at end of 2nd game was still very good, good enough to go to a 3rd if need be.

    In the late part of the 1st game, taufik was gulping air already (relative to LD)
     
    #489 cooler, May 17, 2005
    Last edited: May 17, 2005
  10. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    Yah, I concur with your whole analysis..But overall do you think Taufik was "ready psychologically/mentally" to play the entire game against LinDan?? That's my whole argument, both players are basically even par but psychological factor was the determining factor, at least in that match. That in itself then affected his body as the game wore on. That even before they both play, at least myself, can sense someone has the edge(LinDan) and someone doesn't(Taufik). Esp. after realizing the XD had lost and the burden was on his shoulder. I myself, when watching, can sense and feel he doesn't have that "bounce" and "fire" in his eyes. LinDan OTOH, eventhough trailing @ 12-14, seemed "looser". Taufik OTOH, seemed like he's playing "tight" and not his normal self, as shown with his surprising errors towads the end. It's quite evident by his body language, not only in the 2nd set but throughout the match. Same thing i noticed with PGade, a day earlier in the SF.

    I'm sure Taufik also "has studied and did his homework against LinDan". Both, I'm sure have. But it's the mental factor, *playing with* a heavy burden/pressure and *playing without*, it could affect one's playing. Just ask PGade himself. Ideally, it shouldn't happen, esp. to top world players though.

    Hopefully @ the WC, barring any injuries, both of them can meet again. This time in a neutral court and playing without heavy burden/pressure on either one.

     
    #490 ctjcad, May 17, 2005
    Last edited: May 17, 2005
  11. exalted

    exalted Regular Member

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    Is there a place where these matches are available for download? I'm sorry if this question has been asked before or there is a simple answer, I tried search on eMule without any luck. Any answers to this would be awesome - I definitely want to see any of the MS matches - Gade vs Taufik and Taufik vs Lin!
     
  12. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

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    I cannot agree that Taufik had heavy burden/pressure. If the Indon XD had won, Taufik would have been pressured to win. But when the XD lost, the Cup is as good as lost anyway, so Taufik should be free from any pressure. If there was pressure, then it was personal pressure to defeat Lin Dan, but similarly Lin Dan would have that same pressure as well.
     
  13. seven

    seven New Member

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    You can find eMule links here : http://www.badmintonforum.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23703&page=5

    And on a more general note, you should always search the Tournament Video Sharing section when looking for videos... :rolleyes: :)
     
  14. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    I would suspect some people wouldn't think Taufik played with any burden/pressure, which is fine. The word "pressure" is probably not really the right word, but more of a "burden"...The Indos team came to play in the Final TO WIN, even if they know that they're underdog. But IMO, the XD lost played an important *psychological factor*. In a sense, that lost put the "mental burden" on Taufik. Burden in a way that the Indos will rely on him to still get the win and keep the match going, but Taufik probably thought, 'it's too much to handle, as even if I work hard to win, the Chinese will get the win anyway'. I mean think about it, imagine you have reached the Final and your team have only 3 "best" chance to win in comparison to China which has all 5 fields "covered" and 2 of them are basically automatic(WS & WD). I'm sure those players for the Indos in the 3 fields must feel "pressure/burden" to get them. Play began and then your 1st chance is gone. http://www.worldbadminton.net/Portal/desktopdefault.aspx?tabid=10&ItemID=1785
    And you're up next to play as the 2nd chance. Would it affect the way one play??I would strongly think so, eventhough IMO top world class pros shouldn't have that mentality..
    If the Indos XD had won, yah, I believe it will put "pressure" on Taufik, but "pressure" in a way he will play much better with a more "dire need" and with better concentration to win and keep the match going..That's the opposite of what happen to LinDan, realizing the Chinese XD had won, he had less "pressure/burden" playing to win thus you can see it in his body language throughout the match, as the match they're after is in the bag. He won or lost won't be as crucial. Then Taufik losing in straight sets and esp. looking like "he's suddenly playing out of gas" in the 2nd set, showed something's def. not normal..Also, I've read a few articles on the internet which mentioned that Taufik most likely "gave up".. I'm afraid that's what happened to PGade in the SF against Taufik..

    If Taufik played with no "pressure, burden" as you stated below, I certainly did not see it in his body language throughout the match(not sure about others)...I didn't see any "fire and confidence" much in his body language..If LinDan had lost against Taufik, the Chinese team still has 3 other ties to win and for sure they're more confident, esp. with the WS and WD coming up..That's the thinking..If it was a "personal pressure to win" against LinDan, then IMO, that's not a "team first" mentality-if that's the case, then IMO the Indos made a wrong decision in putting in Taufik..But they had no other choice..

     
    #494 ctjcad, May 18, 2005
    Last edited: May 18, 2005
  15. seven

    seven New Member

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    Agree with ctjcad about all the mental part (call it pressure/burden) in the Taufik vs Lin Dan match.
     
  16. helloworld

    helloworld Regular Member

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    taufik did not play as well as in the match against Peter Gade because
    he may has burden or pressure :crying:
     
  17. ants

    ants Regular Member

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    I would prefer a dream final Indo vs China 2-2 and the Deciding match would be Cai/Fu vs Sigit/Wijaya. It would be very interesting to watch.
     

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