I feel I have a lot to work on, but where should I start first?

[precrime3]

well nobody is disputing that.

I think there's a misunderstanding. I was trying to say earlier that people were able to tell my grip was wrong just from the swing it self - nothing more and nothing less.

Moving on, thanks for the feedback regarding flick serves

 

[ralphz]

At 2:10, you are to be returning serve, you walk towards your position, you are not yet in a ready position, and your opponent serves to you before you are ready.

In a club what'd normally happen as a receiver if you are not ready is you don't hit it and you throw it back to him and tell him you weren't ready, and the point is repeated with them serving again. What you could do while you are readying yourself before being in the ready position, stick your hand up like a stop sign. Then when you are ready put your hand down so they know they can serve.

As for the actual rules for that scenario, if there were a referee, I don't know.. Is it a foul.. what'd that mean, do you get the point.. or is the point repeated.. I've no idea.

You should be aware that that happened though and you shouldn't really let that happen.

 

[precrime3]

At 2:10, you are to be returning serve, you walk towards your position, you are not yet in a ready position, and your opponent serves to you before you are ready.

In a club what'd normally happen as a receiver if you are not ready is you don't hit it and you throw it back to him and tell him you weren't ready, and the point is repeated with them serving again. What you could do while you are readying yourself before being in the ready position, stick your hand up like a stop sign. Then when you are ready put your hand down so they know they can serve.

As for the actual rules for that scenario, if there were a referee, I don't know.. Is it a foul.. what'd that mean, do you get the point.. or is the point repeated.. I've no idea.

You should be aware that that happened though and you shouldn't really let that happen.

Thank you for that - If it was a serious game I would've said something but I guess I just kinda let it go. I've noticed pro's and other players at my club do that and it makes sense now

 

[precrime3]

2/15 Update
Falling into bit of a routine now, with what I do for training. I'm going to try and standardize these updates as well for easy future viewing from anyone that wants to follow along. With that being said, there's got to be some text I have to get out of the way first before we can get these updates going.

Current Training Routine - Focusing on improving fundamentals that reach out to all aspects of the game, as well as most glaring weaknesses.

Morning/Warmup

• Resistance band shoulder exercises (rotator cuff,etc.)
• Planks
• 100x forehand overhead strokes
• 100x backhand strokes
• Few minutes of forehand pronation (swinging racket back and forth or using a 3lb dumbbell)
• 7 minutes on small, medium, and big HECS ball against wall.
• General stretching
• Foam rolling

On Court - Before court some resistance bands and foam rolling to warm up.

Broken up into two sections, I'll call no shuttle and live drills. I'm more consistent with the live drills, as they're more fun for me. Should be better about the no shuttle ones tho.
No Shuttle

• Foot shuffling(?) - Moving feet past and behind the service line to work on coordination and fast feet.
• Twists - Feet start out point forward, then I move them to twist left, then to twist back to middle, then to right.
• IDK what to name this - right foot starts on T line in front of left. Right foot swings behind left foot, and arms mimic motion to hit an overhead clear or smash. I do this exercise to help make that transition faster (bringing up the racket, the nonracket arm, the feet, etc.)
• Shadowing - few minutes of practicing footwork and imagining shots. Split step to forehand net side, backhand netside, then rear court backhand and then forehand. Usually do my footwork in this counter clockwise direction, but then I start chaining into random combinations and get faster until I mess up. Then I slow down, and try to correct. I do this until warmup or until I feel like it.

Live Drills

• 4 Corners - Partner feeds. We do 3 sets of 30. Partner serves to forehand net, backhand net, backhand rearcourt, and forehand rear court in that direction until no birdies left. Partner serves next shuttle as soon as my foot reaches back to center.
• Drive training - half court. Take shuttles and just practice drives. Pretty self-explanatory.
• Smash defense- typically a serve to him, he drops, I lift. Then try to defend the smash.
• (didn't do today but) Rear to front. Shuttles (6-8) on the opposite front court service line (if I am in the backhand half, shuttles are on the opposite side). Goal is to receive and return a clear from the opposite corner, then rush to front and tip over the shuttles on by one. Three sets.

Notes/Additional Info:
I think this is a good routine for me at my level. Pretty good combination of working on basics and what I want to do (I feel I am a doubles fronts, so I want to work on being better at drives right now). With taht being said, my smash defense training seems... inadequate? I have attached behind pov and facing pov (this one in 60FPS, idk if that'll help) and would like your opinion on it.

Today we also started with 10 minutes of half-court clears. Just 10 minutes of hitting it back and forth to each others rear court. Forearm was tired after that, but it really helped me with my stroke and I think it's beneficial I keep starting out my days like that. We also ended the day with a game of danish singles, essentially where net to service is also out. All of these videos will be attached below.

As usual, y'alls feedback much appreciated.

Video Links:

 

[Mason]

It’s good that you did training . You will find this carries over the most to your games. If you keep doing this you will find improvement week to week.

 

[ralphz]

...

You could include comments on where you think you are going wrong..

By the way, some terminology

Notice the difference between a drop and a net shot.. drop is when the shuttle is high at the back, and the shuttle is hit downwards.not as hard as a smash.

Net shots are net to net, a gentle shot. There's also the net kill where the shuttle is over the net and hit straight down.

Lift, is Low to High.

Clear, is High to High. It's done from the back of the court

So when you say "typically a serve to him, he drops, I lift." <-- You mean he does a net shot, and you lift.

 

[Cheung]

Your overhead forehand grip is very panhandle. It's something you do unconsciously.

Have a look at this to correct.

 

[precrime3]

Your overhead forehand grip is very panhandle. It's something you do unconsciously.

Have a look at this to correct.

Man... STILL?! I thought I was getting better about it. My index is a bit higher than the other fingers. Welp, guess we still gotta work on it then.

 

[precrime3]

2/16/20 Update
Same as yesterday, for the most part. The only difference was I did some time to practice my backhand clear, which is extremely inconsistent. I'll attach the video below and you'll see what I mean.

As usual, we have the standard 10-minute warmup, and I'll copy and paste the warm-up routines from yesterday as they're the same. One thing I do want to note is that today 4 corners seemed... easier? Maybe Ben (partner) was feeding slower - and I asked him multiple times to speed things up - but I felt really good about my footwork today. Maybe its mental? Maybe a part of it is consistency paying off - I'll keep doing 4 corners for about another week and then move on to doing random feeding instead of the standard counterclockwise.

Morning/Warmup - Same as 2/15
On Court - Same as 2/15
Live Drills - same as 2/15, change below

• Drive training - half court. Take shuttles and just practice drives. Pretty self-explanatory. Today was different as a girl joined us so they split into two sides and I had to practice driving from two different areas.

Additional Info/Notes:
I've included a video regarding my grip. Cheung has told me it is still quite panhandle and I'm really having trouble seeing it. I thought I had it fixed when I watched some videos and had the mental image of cutting the v with my hand and keeping the index finger up high (and using that for wrist flexion(?)).

Another video I included of a special note is the backhand clear training one. It is bad. I need to know if I just need to have more shuttles fed to me, to get the hang of timing, or if there are some fundamental issues I need to fix (grip, for example - I saw a video that said standard backhand grip shouldn't be used, as that's only for underhand, want BC's opinion)

Video Links

 

[Cheung]

I've included a video regarding my grip. Cheung has told me it is still quite panhandle and I'm really having trouble seeing it. I thought I had it fixed when I watched some videos and had the mental image of cutting the v with my hand and keeping the index finger up high (and using that for wrist flexion(?)).

It's ok until you start trying to swing.

There are lots of alterations to your overhead action that you need to do even before the racquet strikes the shuttle. Your swing action makes you more likely to have panhandle on striking the shuttle

1) turn your body
2) raise right arm with racquet behind your head
3) stretch up with left arm towards shuttle
4) lead the stroke with elbow upwards first and drop the racquet head behind your head
5) do the pronation on hitting the shuttle.

Check @Mason 's thread near the beginning with his garage swings.

 

[ralphz]

Man... STILL?! I thought I was getting better about it. My index is a bit higher than the other fingers. Welp, guess we still gotta work on it then.

As I mentioned, you may be doing this/that better, but not to expect that you are "doing it right".

As I said, this sport is a lot harder and a lot more complex than you think!

People train for YEARS with a coach 1-1..(and many players with years of training still aren't particularly good) You're doing well given I don't know, a few weeks over the internet.

A good player in a club has typically played for a decade(with lots of coaching), and may even coach people.

Most of your shots you aren't hitting the shuttle in the correct part of the racket.. you're hitting the frame and all over the place. (as would be expected). It will take a long time to master that.. When you reach the stage where your strings break right in the sweet spot of your racket then you can say you've got some handle over where on the racket you hit the shuttle.Many people haven't even got to that level! But you'd still have miles to go. Many players with years of experience aren't even at a level where they even look like badminton players by the standards of a badminton coach.

Many players don't do proper pronation and so on but have mastered hitting the shuttle cleanly.

This is not like jiu jitsu which is a where you go to some group coaching lessons and after many years you get to what is considered good. If somebody only went to group coaching lessons of badminton i'd expect them to be rubbish.

Even learning and getting used to the correct positions in doubles - even at a basic level - takes a long time. Especially if most of your partners don't know proper positioning.

Think about it. If anybody had it really right, they'd be a professional player. (And then at that level somebody would be able to find lots of issues!)

 

[precrime3]

It's ok until you start trying to swing.

There are lots of alterations to your overhead action that you need to do even before the racquet strikes the shuttle. Your swing action makes you more likely to have panhandle on striking the shuttle

1) turn your body
2) raise right arm with racquet behind your head
3) stretch up with left arm towards shuttle
4) lead the stroke with elbow upwards first and drop the racquet head behind your head
5) do the pronation on hitting the shuttle.

Check @Mason 's thread near the beginning with his garage swings.

Thanks for this - I will keep this in mind when I head to the courts today so when I record perhaps there will be some improvement. Thanks again for the help!

As I mentioned, you may be doing this/that better, but not to expect that you are "doing it right".

As I said, this sport is a lot harder and a lot more complex than you think!

People train for YEARS with a coach 1-1..(and many players with years of training still aren't particularly good) You're doing well given I don't know, a few weeks over the internet.

A good player in a club has typically played for a decade(with lots of coaching), and may even coach people.

Most of your shots you aren't hitting the shuttle in the correct part of the racket.. you're hitting the frame and all over the place. (as would be expected). It will take a long time to master that.. When you reach the stage where your strings break right in the sweet spot of your racket then you can say you've got some handle over where on the racket you hit the shuttle.Many people haven't even got to that level! But you'd still have miles to go. Many players with years of experience aren't even at a level where they even look like badminton players by the standards of a badminton coach.

Many players don't do proper pronation and so on but have mastered hitting the shuttle cleanly.

This is not like jiu jitsu which is a where you go to some group coaching lessons and after many years you get to what is considered good. If somebody only went to group coaching lessons of badminton i'd expect them to be rubbish.

Even learning and getting used to the correct positions in doubles - even at a basic level - takes a long time. Especially if most of your partners don't know proper positioning.

Think about it. If anybody had it really right, they'd be a professional player. (And then at that level somebody would be able to find lots of issues!)

Good to know what I'm in for! Thanks

 

[ralphz]

Your swing action makes you more likely to have panhandle on striking the shuttle

Would it be that it's hard or even not possible to see exactly what grip a person has from the back, other than that if you see their swing is proper then you know for sure they have the right grip. And if their swing is wrong you can only say they probably didn't have the right grip?

I agree with you that given his incorrect swing, he is "more likely to have panhandle" I think that seems to be a very reasonable logical thing one can say regarding what grip he has or has not..

I'm often a bit puzzled when on a forum there's a video of somebody from behind and somebody claims to know with certainty that they're panhandle.

I think it's possible for somebody to be quite sideways on when they hit it and use a basic grip and and still get pronation in there - and then who is going to know for sure from a video if they used a basic grip or a forehand grip.. Sure if it's very behind you then I suppose you'd have to use a basic grip for the forehand overhead.. But if it's not very behind them and it's not being hit with contact point parallel with the net, and they do a proper swing, who is to say from a video, whether they used basic grip or forehand grip?

When people make conclusions about what grip a person has, from a video like that, they're not looking at their wrist and hand are they? Or are they simply looking at the swing and making a good guess? like correct swing , and they assume was forehand grip or basic grip. In contrast, if they see an incorrect swing with no pronation, they assume it was panhandle (since pronation is natural with a forehand grip and it'd take a special effort for them to have the correct grip and to not pronate! and it is assumed they are not doing that!).. is that basically the reasoning process?

 

[Mason]

Would it be that it's hard or even not possible to see exactly what grip a person has from the back, other than that if you see their swing is proper then you know for sure they have the right grip. And if their swing is wrong you can only say they probably didn't have the right grip?

I agree with you that given his incorrect swing, he is "more likely to have panhandle" I think that seems to be a very reasonable logical thing one can say regarding what grip he has or has not..

I'm often a bit puzzled when on a forum there's a video of somebody from behind and somebody claims to know with certainty that they're panhandle.

I think it's possible for somebody to be quite sideways on when they hit it and use a basic grip and and still get pronation in there - and then who is going to know for sure from a video if they used a basic grip or a forehand grip.. Sure if it's very behind you then I suppose you'd have to use a basic grip for the forehand overhead.. But if it's not very behind them and it's not being hit with contact point parallel with the net, and they do a proper swing, who is to say from a video, whether they used basic grip or forehand grip?

When people make conclusions about what grip a person has, from a video like that, they're not looking at their wrist and hand are they? Or are they simply looking at the swing and making a good guess? like correct swing , and they assume was forehand grip or basic grip. In contrast, if they see an incorrect swing with no pronation, they assume it was panhandle (since pronation is natural with a forehand grip and it'd take a special effort for them to have the correct grip and to not pronate! and it is assumed they are not doing that!).. is that basically the reasoning process?

You can clearly see he is too far panhandle from the view he showed us from behind ....

 

[Cheung]

@ralphz

Playing and coaching experience.

Definitely some small details are difficult to see on video.

I met up with one person on the forum. Although he had made lots of improvement, there were still micro adjustments needed. I only noticed in person because I could view his action from different angles and shadow strokes to give a detailed analysis. I think he got a bit surprised that although working hard on overhead technique, there were still things that could be better done.

for @precrime3 , it’s really clear the basic overhead grip and action needs much work on. First, he needs to get the ready position plus grip correct and consistent more than 95% of the practice- that’s even before attempting to strike the shuttle.

 

[precrime3]

@ralphz

Playing and coaching experience.

Definitely some small details are difficult to see on video.

I met up with one person on the forum. Although he had made lots of improvement, there were still micro adjustments needed. I only noticed in person because I could view his action from different angles and shadow strokes to give a detailed analysis. I think he got a bit surprised that although working hard on overhead technique, there were still things that could be better done.

for @precrime3 , it’s really clear the basic overhead grip and action needs much work on. First, he needs to get the ready position correct and consistent so that’s even before attempting to strike the shuttle.

Good to know. Should I refer to that last post you had with the video? Or any drills or what? Thanks for your help as always.

 

[precrime3]

2/17/20 Update
Small update today - more of a celebration really. I know I've got still a long way to go, but sometimes it's nice to see how far I've come along. I was able to play with Mehkan, who I consider sort of my benchmark because if I don't play my best, he will beat me. However today, I beat him 21-5 and 21-3 (then a third game because he insisted. Got super tired and it was 21-15 lol).

I noticed that my footwork was much better. I was getting net shots that tricked me earlier, and recovered a lot of rearcourt backhand shots I would've missed. I still missed some but the percentage was a lot better. Maybe the pro matches I'm playing is rubbing off lol. Watch the video attached and hopefully what I'm saying matches you guys perception

@Cheung - I was thinking of what you mean regarding my stroke and I understand playing now. My thinking was that grip is just grip, but it's everything. I need to work on the kinetic chain - the elbow throwing forward, everything. I distinctly remember only one shot I would remember being of proper form (unfortunately not recorded) because I was playing against someone significantly lower than my level and used no energy in it, but it still made it to the backline surprisingly. That was sort of my eureka moment today.

Training, warmup, etc. was same. Actually today a bit lazy, morning strokes were maybe just half of normal, and didn't do any drills today.

Video Links


As usual, thanks so much for the help and advice BC. I feel like I wouldn't be improving at nearly the rate I am without you guys

 

[Mason]

2/17/20 Update
Small update today - more of a celebration really. I know I've got still a long way to go, but sometimes it's nice to see how far I've come along. I was able to play with Mehkan, who I consider sort of my benchmark because if I don't play my best, he will beat me. However today, I beat him 21-5 and 21-3 (then a third game because he insisted. Got super tired and it was 21-15 lol).

I noticed that my footwork was much better. I was getting net shots that tricked me earlier, and recovered a lot of rearcourt backhand shots I would've missed. I still missed some but the percentage was a lot better. Maybe the pro matches I'm playing is rubbing off lol. Watch the video attached and hopefully what I'm saying matches you guys perception

@Cheung - I was thinking of what you mean regarding my stroke and I understand playing now. My thinking was that grip is just grip, but it's everything. I need to work on the kinetic chain - the elbow throwing forward, everything. I distinctly remember only one shot I would remember being of proper form (unfortunately not recorded) because I was playing against someone significantly lower than my level and used no energy in it, but it still made it to the backline surprisingly. That was sort of my eureka moment today.

Training, warmup, etc. was same. Actually today a bit lazy, morning strokes were maybe just half of normal, and didn't do any drills today.

Video Links


As usual, thanks so much for the help and advice BC. I feel like I wouldn't be improving at nearly the rate I am without you guys

I see improvement from your last game ...

 

[precrime3]

I see improvement from your last game ...

Thanks so much - good to know I'm not crazy. And the more I watch myself the more I think I'm understanding what you mean from my stroke. Like I'm taking shots to my side, when ideally I should be behind them. Despite my grip providing some wrist flexion, this means I'm still using my shoulder a lot, no?

Gotta work on throwing that elbow first. Gotta work on it starting tomorrow because if it's going to be hard habit to break now, it'll be even harder if I let this go. Plus my game will get better!

Good thing because I can still practice my stroke on all of my footwork drills

 

[Cheung]

I noticed that my footwork was much better. I was getting net shots that tricked me earlier, and recovered a lot of rearcourt backhand shots I would've missed. I still missed some but the percentage was a lot better. Maybe the pro matches I'm playing is rubbing off lol. Watch the video attached and hopefully what I'm saying matches you guys perception

@Cheung - I was thinking of what you mean regarding my stroke and I understand playing now. My thinking was that grip is just grip, but it's everything. I need to work on the kinetic chain - the elbow throwing forward, everything. I distinctly remember only one shot I would remember being of proper form (unfortunately not recorded) because I was playing against someone significantly lower than my level and used no energy in it, but it still made it to the backline surprisingly. That was sort of my eureka moment today.

Training, warmup, etc. was same. Actually today a bit lazy, morning strokes were maybe just half of normal, and didn't do any drills.

All that running around in court in practice does help. LOL.

Back to panhandle again, it’s difficult to change because in certain forehand shots, it’s the correct grip and in other , it’s a big no no.

we can tell you are massively panhandle in the game by two factors:

a) after you hit the a shot and go back to the middle, your racquet face is directed downwards facing the floor.

b) when you raise the racquet to prepare an overhead, the racquet face is again directed downwards to the floor.

A look at the top Ladies singles players especially Tai Tzu Ying and Ratchanok Intanon. Refer to a) and b) and see what you do differently to them. Those two players have superbly good technical skills.