question about "full swing badminton"'s wrist and what he is saying?

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by ralphz, Dec 9, 2023.

  1. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    I'm watching


    around 4:50 onwards.

    If you look at this screenshot, would you agree he has the wrist bent back

    [​IMG]


    Then at 5:00 he has his wrist straight and has rotated his arm (forearm and upper arm).. doing arm rotation.. nothing unusual there with arm rotation

    [​IMG]


    All agree that one should do arm rotation on an overhead so no question there.

    Now from those screenshots, I wouldn't say he necessarily thinks that the wrist should be bent back and then straightened when hitting, on an overhead 'cos he's very near the net there. (so the fact that he bends it back there doesn't necessarily mean he thinks one should on a smash).

    But then he says "Smash is the same".

    Now, we agree he's going to use arm rotation on the smash, i'm not asking about that. But the question is, does he mean also the wrist bending back then straightening?

    Here it looks like he has bent his wrist back

    [​IMG]


    And straightened it when hitting it

    [​IMG]


    On this one though he might not have bent his wrist back he might have only rotated his arm

    [​IMG]



    Then he say there's no bending of the wrist

    [​IMG]


    And he demonstrates what means by bending of the wrist , such that when he says not to bend the wrist this is the bending he means

    [​IMG]

    We can agree not to bend it forward past neutral and that he is saying not to bend it forward past neutral.

    But it's not clear to me whether he thinks one should bend the wrist back or not.

    And i'm interested in confirmation that in those demonstrations I show him doin in the screenshots, he is indeed bending the wrist back.

    i'm not sure if he is aware of it though 'cos he's saying not to bend the wrist though maybe he just means don't bend it forwards..

    or maybe he's bending it back 'cos he's so near the net and given that his racket is so low, he's actually unintentionally doing more of a net kill.

    He's saying not to bend the wrist though i'm not sure he really means that maybe he only means not to bend it past neutral.

    i'm aware there are differences of opinion on whether the wrist bends back and then to neutral.. or whether it stays neutral. And there can be different methods. And i'm pretty sure I can do either. My technique is ok..

    I'm just wondering a bit about what he is or isn't intending to say in that regard, and what he's doing in that regard,.. and what he would say/do if asked. On the question of wrist bending back and then to neutral.
     
    #1 ralphz, Dec 9, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2023
  2. UkPlayer

    UkPlayer Regular Member

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    You bend the wrist back. You don't bend it further forwards past the point where you hit the shuttle during a smash which is typically neutral. Maybe slightly either side of neutral depending on the stroke.

    There's no power generated past the point where you've hit the shuttle so no point bending the wrist forwards further. You let all the tension go once you've made contact with the shuttle. Same as you let a ball go when you throw it. Try the throwing action for a ball and you'll see what's meant by that.

    Bending the wrist further forwards post contact is pointless and inhibits recovery time for the next stroke. Particularly important in doubles.
     
    #2 UkPlayer, Dec 12, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2023
  3. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Maybe your position is that he does and I think you are right that he does. But not everybody does.(or if it's degree, some do it only very slightly . He does it quite significantly or not just very slightly).


    As I said "We can agree not to bend it forward past neutral and that he is saying not to bend it forward past neutral."

    That's badminton 101.

    I made it really clear I am not talking about that. We all agree you don't bend it past neutral. That's very basic facts. That isn't the question.

    But from what I understand, when he says don't bend the wrist, he believes in bending the wrist back just not forward past neutral. I figured he might mean that but was looking to see if anybody else thought that's what he meant. And I see you do.

    You writing "You bend the wrist back. ". Is not accurate. There are two methods. Some bend it back some keep it neutral or around neutral. (And we agree not past neutral).

    Judging by the image his wrist does go quite far back when it extends.. not near neutral. That's what I thought but wondered if anybody else thinks that.

    He could have been clearer instead of just saying not to bend the wrist cos he does bend it significantly back relative to the method that doesn't bend it back or doesn't bend it back much. Not everybody does it his way.

    But we agree not bending it past neutral. And good he doesn't do that.
     
  4. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Best to have another Korean translation rather than depending on the translation on the video too literally.

    However, I do notice Korean players have a different smash technique.
     
    #4 Cheung, Dec 12, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2023
  5. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    I have almost never seen a Korean player properly smash with proper forearm pronation. Perhaps JJS did. And these online Korean coaches are very typical in showing wrist flexion for smashing eg. LJB

    Sent from my SM-S918W using Tapatalk
     
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  6. UkPlayer

    UkPlayer Regular Member

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    Who are these some? In what situations?

    I'd like to see a pro player who's not bending their wrist back at some point in the situations he's demonstrating, It's genuinely unfathomable to me. If you can, do link a video on a pro player who's not bending their wrist backwards in a full overhead smash, if I'm wrong that would be a genuine eye opener.

    Surely the degree to which someone bends their wrist back depends on the stroke and not just the player? Are there actually people who fix their wrist in a slightly off neutral position for every single smash no matter what power they're intending to generate? Again, who's an example player?

    He's talking about hitting power, pressing force as he says. What's the point of not bending your wrist backwards when you have time to hit an overhead power shot? Surely keeping it neutral would quickly lead to an injury like tennis elbow?

    He's talking about power and emphasising the point isn't he, or is he talking about something else? What makes you think he's trying to say you always bend your wrist this far back? Is he demonstrating the specifics of a stroke or a general concept about where power comes from? Do you disagree with the concept?
     
    #6 UkPlayer, Dec 12, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2023
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  7. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Regarding the idea of not bending the wrist back..

    My technique has gone through many evolutions, and, Thinking back.. there was a time when after having my racket in the racket prep position, and beginning the throwing action, where the upper arm rotates and the elbow and the elbow comes forward and up. Then, some coaches have told me that the racket face should be perpendicular to the floor. Whereas my racket face ( at the time), was not because my wrist was quite bent back. And the fact that my racket face was not, was considered a problem by some coaches I spoke to.

    I found a picture and I think it disproves me a little bit in that this player's wrist does look a bit bent back, BUT, his racket face is in that perpendicular to the floor position.

    I'd say his wrist is bent back a bit.

    It is a complex subject and there are different degrees of bent back and different portions of a swing.

    This image shows the portion of the swing I am talking about.


    [​IMG]

    When I would do it, my racket face would be off from that position, because my wrist was (i'd have said bent back), but maybe now i'd say, my wrist was maybe bent back too much.. And the correction/fix for that would be making sure my wrist wasn't bent back as much as it was.

    So the aim was the racket should be in the position like the guy in the picture. (when my arm is in that position). So in that portion of the swing.

    For me for the racket to be in that position, the bend back of the wrist seems to me to be somewhat. I hadn't noticed till now I figured it was just my wrist was neutral.. to have the racket in that position, but now that you point it out and I have found that image, and also i've checked mine, I see my wrist is slightly bent back. as it's natural and also the racket still manages to be in that (correct) position. But if I let my wrist go more back(which I have done in the past), then I will lose that position of my racket as it points off a bit. And then my racket face might go between that and parallel with the floor or almost parallel with the floor.. or even as far as parallel with the floor (depending on degree of excess wrist bending back)

    I also had a discussion with a coach that said that he'd been taught to have the wrist neutral but he can't see how one would do it like that and his would bent back a bit.. In that discussion I don't recall checking what he thought re racket head position perpendicular to the floor.. Maybe his would be.. And that's the main thing behind the question of wrist position.

    And I have no doubt that the full swing guy's racket position is like the pro in the pic as many people point to the full swing guy's technique as fantastic..To the extent that any coach i've ever spoken to likes full swing badminton's overhead technique

    So now i'm wondering if any pro players are more wrist bent back, and i'm thinking not..

    I remember when I was doing it and my racket was not in that position, because my wrist was too bent back, but there were a few other issues too and I was told of some variations in what pros do but but I think those variations were more regarding what happens at a later portion of the swing... And this subject was just for that portion of the swing..

    So now i'm thinking for sure, there's the one way / one good technique way / one way pros do it for that position, and the wrist should be a bit back. 'cos it's natural.. and racket in that position.

    My racket was off from that position 'cos my wrist was presumably more back than it should've been.

    Thanks
     
    #7 ralphz, Dec 13, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2023
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  8. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Would you say the "full swing" guy(who I think is Korean), Is or isn't using "proper forearm pronation" ? (I think you might be suggesting he isn't but just checking!)

    Also looking here the "badminton smash (man)" video (slow mo smash compilation) ,would you say that any there are using the korean style / not "proper forearm pronation"?

     
  9. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    (forum error duplicate post)
     
  10. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    I think that full swing coach is not as bad as LJB in demonstrating wrist flexion more than pronation during coaching cues. I think there are various degrees of wrist pronation and flexion during smash, depending on whether you're positioned properly or not. But overall KOR players tend towards flexion more (best example is Choi SolGyu) than say MAS and INA players who tend towards pronation more.

    Sent from my SM-S918W using Tapatalk
     
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  11. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Well with LJB we have the famous demonstrations that have been much discussed here already, but I understand that the methods he teaches are not what he did when he played. For example he teaches a weird racket prep position that from what I understand, he didn't use when he played. He played a long time ago, and I doubt any video of him actually playing would show degree of wrist flexion would it?

    So i'll look at the other name you mention

    Choi SolGyu is an interesting and very good example you mention, because we can actually look at him play..in video footage that would be from recent years (So would be better quality video footage than footage from the 1980s).

    LEE Yang+WANG Chi Lin vs CHOI Solgyu+SEO Seung Jae
    Badminton MNP



    This to me doesn't look like wrist flexion going on

    [​IMG]


    this image I can't see if he has done wrist flexion

    [​IMG]


    I can't really say much re degrees of wrist flexion here

    [​IMG]


    I can't quite see examples that show anything specifically Korean re degree of wrist flexion..

    Do you have any examples?

    Thanks
     
  12. UkPlayer

    UkPlayer Regular Member

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    @ralphz
    I think there's a point at which the coach ends and the player begins on things like wrist position in the smash. I've mostly been coached but I've recently been self teaching certain aspects of my game with a feeding machine and in particular spending a lot of time upgrading my backhand.

    What I've found is there's a lot of small differences between coaching advice on youtube in terms of grip, positioning etc. They all point to the same thing conceptually but if I were to take them literally then I'd get lost on microfocusing on a particular aspect which detracts from the overall technique. Ultimately whatever clicks for me only clicks after I've hit many shuttles and got an idea of what feels right, travels right, is consistent etc. This turns out to be what they were all pointing to anyway but learning style for me means figuring that out for myself to some extent in terms of what feels natural and flows.

    I think there are some things that are right conceptually and some things which are should come naturally once the player has the concept and practices over and over. I thinks its better for me the coach focuses on the former and not the latter. My coach who was an ex pro did this by direct demonstration for which I would copy and practice. My early junior coaches tended just to confuse me a lot by microfocusing on particular bits of the stroke instead of guiding and letting me work it out by hitting over and over. That may work for some people but it never worked for me.
     
    #12 UkPlayer, Dec 23, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2023
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  13. Ffly

    Ffly Regular Member

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    This.
    As time goes by, I reached the same conclusion. No 2 players are gonna have the exact same mechanic, strength, body composition, contact point, etc. For instance how one feels when they say "relax before tightening grip" is totally subjective. That's what Full swing coach is actually saying in most of his videos : don't think too much about the pronation, etc.

    Focus on the key concepts : grip, footwork, power transfer and then experiment, experiment, experiment and adjust as you go. Think you are good ? ok then how do you take it to the next level ? anything that is not comfortable or hurting you in the swing process ? Identify, learn, sometimes unlearn and relearn. Out of all the tries, you will hit that perfect smash where you feel that everything went right. Until you can replicate it 100% everytime, you know that you have things to work on to get that consistency. It will take time but you know that's how it works for YOU.
     
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  14. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    If you see my post carefully, I never suggested that all coaches teach the same thing.

    I just asked a question, about the technique "full swing badminton" is doing and showing there

    And it has led on asking a bit further on difference re korean overhead technique that some speak of.

    You might be misunderstanding the question.

    I'm not asking "Hey I dunno how to smash wha doo eye do"

    My overhead technique is fine.

    I'm just asking a question about what full swing badminton is doing and showing there.
    .
    That doesn't mean that what he is doing and showing there is the only way, or is the way or anything like that.

    If somebody doesn't have a clue how to do an overhead, then they probably shouldn't be lasering in on a technicality.

    If you think that's what i'm doing (lasering in on a technicality without understanding the basic things you just mentioned), then you've misunderstood the question. I understand how to do an overhead. And I understand that different coaches differ in some details. And I understand and have tried different things myself.

    I can see why many might want to avoid the question, as it's not easy to answer, and it doesn't matter to them, and some would rather duck questions they don't know the answer to and pivot to things they do know the answer to. But i've made the question pretty clear with screenshots.
     
    #14 ralphz, Dec 24, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2023
  15. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    I had a look again.


    He is bending the wrist back and IMO, over emphasising it for teaching purposes. He’s showing the hand technique in isolation and IMO, showing the part of the kinetic link at the end stage using forearm, wrist and fingers.

    You get better transfer of power if the forearm and wrist are straight on impact. His point is that if you strike the shuttle with the wrist in a slightly bent backwards position, that’s not such an efficient technique for energy transfer.


    Looking back earlier in the video, he does demonstrate pronation after the point of impact with the shuttle at 1.52 when the hand relaxes.
     
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  16. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Thanks for confirming he was bending his wrist back.

    Whatever he was saying(some of which I know what he was saying and some of which I don't), I don't think he was saying not to hit the shuttle while the wrist is back. Nobody (generally) hits the shuttle while the wrist is back! (unless it's an emergency of some sort or maybe one or two other exceptions). If he started demonstrating hitting with wrist back, to tell people not to do it then his demonstrations would have been super super odd! Almost nobody needs to be told not to hit an overhead with their wrist back (With some possible exceptions)!

    There is an interesting question as to whether the wrist should bend back during the motion. But no question here on whether it should be bent back on striking it. . Wrist bent back on striking it would be rare and a completely different subject!

    Most of his videos are much better than that one. A post recommended that video in another thread. Here Post #12
    https://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/index.php?threads/request-for-smash-stroke-feedback.191451/

    A motion in that video that I think he does fine is at 2:27.

    But certainly there are better videos posters can recommend to people! Including from him. His technique on overheads is very highly regarded. Like often when talking of good technique coaches might point to pro players but some coaches point to him, and rightly so, there's a concensus(and as far as I can tell, even, unanimous consensus), that his overhead is good technique . Though I don't think this video is a good example of it. (though 2:27 looks fine to me!).
     
    #16 ralphz, Dec 31, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2023
  17. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    My interpretation at 4.40 onwards is he is saying beginners tend to strike the shuttle with the wrist bent backwards (i.e. partially extended) though not extreme.

    He demonstrates what a beginner does and the difference to what he teaches.
     
  18. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Looking from around that time.. 4:36-4:51

    What he's doing there is more of a net kill..

    Even when beginning I've never really had any issues or mysteries with them they've always been a pretty easy shot for me if i'm there.

    I don't think he's hitting it with the wrist back.. i've included some images. (Way before he hits it, yes, he has it back, but not when he hits it).

    looking at the timeframe you mention ..

    It does seem like what he says at times is to not hit it with the wrist bent back. But I think he might just be talking about the early part of the swing. 'cos the demonstrations of what to not do, have the wrist excessively back at the early part of the swing. But the shuttle is going down. So it's not back when he hits the shuttle.


    Here is a demonstration he does with no shuttle


    His wrist is back before he any contact would happen..

    A

    [​IMG]

    Then there's the contact that'd happen
    His wrist is a little bit back when that contact would be made.. i'm not sure whether that's wrong.

    B
    [​IMG]

    And then his wrist comes back again after he'd have hit it (had there been a feed).

    C
    [​IMG]


    Then he does one where there is a feed

    His racket is excessively swung back probably his wrist is very back.. maybe upper arm quite externally rotated but let's say, wrist is very back..

    D
    [​IMG]



    The video doesn't catch his wrist position when he hits it

    E
    [​IMG]



    But you see he has hit the shuttle down. So I don't think his wrist was back when he made contact.

    F
    [​IMG]


    Then his wrist comes back maybe from a recoil. And he leaves his racket there

    G
    [​IMG]

    Which might give the idea that must be his wrist was bent back when he hit it. But it wasn't. We saw the shuttle go down.

    Then 4:46-4:48 he says they grip the racket too early from a bent wrist

    I think there he's trying to say don't do a big swing back with wrist bent back in the back swing of a net kill.

    So if you see Image D.. That's what he's saying to not do.. And it's definitely wrong..

    He isn't striking the shuttle with his wrist back

    If he was the shuttle wouldn't have gone down.

    His letting his wrist come back after he hits it confuses things a bit.

    But when he says the words at 4:46-4:48 "they grip the racket too early from a bent wrist" that's gotta be a reference to what he's doing in image D.. Which isn't when he hits it.

    I think maybe all of those are what he thinks shouldn't be done.

    Then at 4:49

    H
    [​IMG]



    I
    [​IMG]

    So he has stopped swinging his wrist back after contact. (which might suggest it's what he thinks should be done). But looking at H, he does bend his wrist back when he brings the racket back.

    I don't know whether at 4:49 he's trying to show what should be done or shouldn't be done?

    Maybe he's still showing what shouldn't be done? (Shouldn't bend wrist back far when swinging back).

    But I don't really see from those images anything like what you mention that he's saying or demonstrating that the wrong way is to "strike the shuttle with the wrist bent backwards". It would be wrong to strike it like that.. But when he strikes the shuttle, it's going down, and his wrist isn't bent back when he strikes it. It seems to me he's saying it's wrong to bend the wrist back in that excessive way swinging the racket back (and indeed that'd be wrong).
     
    #18 ralphz, Jan 1, 2024
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2024
  19. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    I didn’t write it was a wrong way. Not sure where you thought I wrote that.
     
  20. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    .
    But you wrote Regarding 4:40 "he is saying beginners tend to strike the shuttle with the wrist bent backwards (i.e. partially extended) though not extreme. He demonstrates what a beginner does and the difference to what he teaches."

    So what i'm saying is

    I don't really see from those images anything like what you mention that he's saying or demonstrating that the -beginner- way is to "strike the shuttle with the wrist bent backwards"
     

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